Would child neglect be punishable in an Ancap society?

Was just reading over Rothbard’s pro-choice argument in For a New Liberty, and it got me thinking. He claims that the question of whether or not the fetus is human is irrelevant because it is living as a parasite on the mother’s body, potentially infringing upon her right of self-ownership.

This makes me wonder, couldn’t this same argument be extended to early childhood? While a child may not be a literal parasite like a fetus, it still lives a parasitic existence on its parents, as it cannot feed and care for itself.

So, would the parents be legally justified if they were to simply neglect or abandon their own child? If not, what is the key difference between the parasitism of the fetus and that of the infant?

Did the parents invite the child to live as a “parasite”?

“Did the parents invite the child to live as a “parasite”?”

Umm… I don’t know… you tell me :slight_smile:

Anyway, in the FaNL passage, Rothbard writes (about abortion):

“Even in the stronger case where the mother originally wanted the child, the mother, as the property owner in her own body, has the right to change her mind and eject it.” (p. 132)

So in the case of abortion, at least, the fact that the mother “invited” the fetus into her body does not preclude her from aborting it.

And even though “the property owner in her own body” doesn’t apply, she still is the owner of the surplus income and labor she must expend on sustaining the child.

I think that makes a big difference: http://libertarianpapers.org/2010/16-wisniewski-block-on-abortion/

Interesting… So must someone who is pro-choice also condone child abandonment/neglect if they wish to remain logically consistent?

It depends on their logic and views on when life begins. Most don’t believe life begins until sometime after conception, possible even until birth. If they believed the baby is as much alive at conception as it is at birth, or beyond, then yes, they would have to condone child neglect to remain logically consistent.

OK well that makes sense, and pretty much frames the mainstream abortion debate.

But if this is the case then when Rothbard writes:

“Most discussion of the issue bogs down in minutiae about when human life begins, when or if the fetus can be considered to be alive, etc. All this is really irrelevant to the issue of the legality (again, not necessarily the morality) of abortion.”

is he wrong? Or is he just saying it’s irrelevent to the issue of legality because he doesn’t think we will every be able to agree on a definition of the beginning of life?

I think it’s very important, and for the reasons explained in that reply to Block. If it’s not life, then abortion doesn’t cause death, but if it is, then it does.

Rothbard’s position (from Ethics of Liberty) is that parents may at any time repudiate their child, that is, refuse to care for it any longer. I disagree with Rothbard but not because I believe parents have some intrinsic moral duty to care for their children. I think Rothbard fails to investigate why the normative legal concept of parental duty arose in the first place.

It is rarely the case that both parents simultaneously desire to abandon their child. Most of the time, one or the other parent wants to abandon, most often, the male*. Hoppe has noted (can’t remember the cite, sorry) that the modern human “nuclear” family is an evolutionary innovation over our early ancestors where the costs of child-bearing and rearing were borne by the female alone or the group as a whole, rather than by the individual male and female who conceived the children. Paternity uncertainty is the primary reason for this … it is impossible without DNA sequencing technology to be certain that a particular child is indeed the offspring of a particular male. The family is possible because of the human female’s concealed fertility which essentially makes it difficult for her to reproduce with a man with better genes while accepting provenance from a more diligent man**. The family privatizes the costs of begetting offspring by placing the costs of bearing and raising children on those who benefit from the children, that is, the genetic parents of the children.

Since the emergence of the human family, the parties with vested interests in a child have become more numerous. The grandparents, uncles, aunts, and so on, all have an indirect interest in the survival of a child since that child carries a significant fraction of their genes. When a man abandons his children, he is implicitly repudiating the cost of raising his wife’s children, that is, he is pushing the burden off himself and onto her family. With the advent of the “single, working mom” this is a little less the case today than it used to be, but that is an extremely recent invention in the grand scheme of things.

The more resources which a father must expend on the raising of one daughter’s children, the fewer resources he has for his other grand-children or for procreating more of his own children. That is, when a son-in-law abandons his children, the father-in-law’s reproductive success is diminished. This fact pits these two individuals in a natural conflict of interests. For this reason, when a man abandons his children, the father-in-law is likely to be motivated to retaliate against the son-in-law, since he now stands to lose nothing if his son-in-law is dead. So, child abandonment naturally leads to disputes between in-laws and even blood relatives. It is the role of law to resolve such disputes without resort to martial contest. I believe that a robust theory of property has to take into account the particulars of human nature and, particularly in the area of family, this can become very complex. These issues have typically been handled through religious institutions, for better or worse, but what is important to realize is the material conflict of interests between the various persons involved.

So, I think Rothbard - for all his genius - was too simplistic in his treatment of child abandonment. It’s not as simple as saying, “it would be aggression to force the parents to care for a child, even if they no longer want to”. The family and in-laws certainly have standing to sue at law and it is a matter of law to hammer out who is responsible for what expenses. If we had a free market in law, precedents and best-practices would emerge that would act as a guide, permitting people to reason about and calculate the costs of having another child, of divorcing, of repudiating the care of a child, and so on. As always, the root problem is the territorial monopolization of law and the inevitable zombie law that results.

Clayton -

*Evolutionary psychology tells us why males tend to abandon their children more frequently than females, it has to do with a concept from biology called reproductive anisogamy which basically means that the female invests a hell of a lot more into a child than a male does, as a matter of biological fact (the male invests a sperm, the female invests 10 months of pregnancy, childbirth, nursing, etc.) One less child for a male is easily replaced, for a female, it is a major loss. This is true of most (all?) mammals, not only humans.

**The idea is that, somewhere in our ancestral history, primate males began exchanging food for sex which began to break down the alpha-male model. But the alpha males could still beat the “provider males” by copulating with their “wives” only when she was fertile and leaving her alone the rest of the time. She benefitted by having children with better, alpha genes. The alpha male benefited by having someone else pay to raise his children. The “provider males” were all-round losers until the emergence of concealed fertility which made it impossible for a female to double-dip in this way.

There were several threads on this last week and I didn’t feel like bothering with them because the “pro-life” position reduces to absurdity.

Did the parents invite the child to live as a “parasite”?

Abortions result from unwanted pregnancies. The act of having sex may have been voluntary, but the resulting fetus is an unintended consequence. Yes, we might expect someone to know that having sex might lead to being pregnant, but why don’t we extend the pro-lifer’s expectation of liability further?

I know that when I go to the store to get some ice cream that I might, even though I don’t intend to, leave my door unlocked. What if the proverbial loser had just been disowned by his parents and happened to wind up slipping in my back door? He needs someone to take care of him and he wandered into my home in this state. This is analogous to the situation that Wisniewski opposes a woman’s property rights on.

Nowhere does he cite Block, who handled this possible objection decades ago.

No, we will stand by our position. Since foetuses are dependent on the owner of the womb in which they reside, they derive their status from that owner’s attitude toward them. If the owner (mother) does not want them, they are trespassers; it doesn’t matter whether or not they were invited in the first place. The woman, like the homeowner, has the final say and is not obliged to provide a long term sanctuary. A guest may be asked to leave. A foetus may be removed.

The faulty analogy of Wisniewski is saying that the fetus was “drugged and dragged onto a plane then asked to leave at 30,000 feet”. A woman had sex. There is no implicit plan to drug and kill people. Both mean imminent death, but the all-important “chains of causation” differ.

Wisniewski also seems confused about how enforcing this law would work in an otherwise free society. It’s fraught with problems at every turn.

It depends on their logic and views on when life begins.

Nope, this is entirely irrelevant.

@E. R., I don’t see how your unlocked door analogy applies. The proverbial loser acted and freely entered your house. Also, booting him wouldn’t cause his death. A fetus is conceived involuntarily, it was acted upon, and evicting it would cause certain death, up to a point in the timeline.

As for the question on how this would be handled in a free society, I believe Block’s evictionism is the most practical approach. But who knows, really.

Depends entirely on what kind of a guest are we talking about. A guest of a Motel may not be asked to leave in the middle of the night.

That isn’t the same type of liability. A loser taking a shelter in your house is not a result of you leaving a door unlocked. It is a result of his coming through your unlocked door uninvited.

@E. R., I don’t see how your unlocked door analogy applies. The proverbial loser acted and freely entered your house. Also, booting him wouldn’t cause his death. A fetus is conceived involuntarily, it was acted upon, and evicting it would cause certain death, up to a point in the timeline.

As for the question on how this would be handled in a free society, I believe Block’s evictionism is the most practical approach. But who knows, really.

“Adult children” are about as common as aborted babies. How do you know that this loser won’t be unable to find another unlocked door, or the world is so cruel that nobody helps him and he won’t die? It must be asked first as well if you believe that a helpless child can be abandoned after they leave the womb. What about a 40 year old dependent with Downs syndrome? By this line of reasoning, a birth control accident could chain a woman to caring for an invalid for the rest of her life.

Whether the proverbial loser or the fetus acts is irrelevant. The fetus has the right to not be aggressed upon due to its status as a potential moral agent and actor-producer. In both cases the state of dependency is the result of the mother’s actions. She doesn’t intend to leave the door open any more than she intended to get pregnant. I really shouldn’t have to say this, but people don’t have sex simply to procreate. Again, the important thing is the primacy of the mother’s right of self-ownership and her ability to decide what lives inside her.

I have asked this question close to ten times now in this repeated topic. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that eviction is murder, who has a right to pursue her for this crime?

If rape excuses abortions, must a rapist be captured? Suppose the boyfriend admits to rape in a mock trial in the abortion clinic and the “victim” agrees to no punishment as is anyone’s right. Are you, as a 3rd party, going to come prove the sex was consensual?

Depends entirely on what kind of a guest are we talking about. A guest of a Motel may not be asked to leave in the middle of the night.

A fetus is not a guest without the consent of the mother qua property owner. Motels agree to let people stay the night. The purpose of running an airline is to get people from point A to B, not toss them out midway. There is absolutely no explicit or implicit contract with C (the fetus) when A and B agree to have sex.

@E. R., sex and having children go hand in hand. Intended to get pregnant or not, so long as one intended to perform an act that is supposed to (or naturally going to) lead to pregnancy, then one should be responsible for the result of that action. The fetus, intentionally or not, was created and given life. This was not it’s choice. It was not an actor. The mother’s actions, intentionally or not, caused the fetus to be given life (created) through no effort of it’s own. It is a completely innocent party at this point, caused by the actions of the mother. I don’t know that that justifies aggression against it by the one who created it to begin with. We aren’t talking about accidently creating a shoe, we are talking about accidently creating a life. That’s why this whole debate centers (for most people) on when the “bundle of cells” qualifies as a life.

@E. R., sex and having children go hand in hand.

Sex and pleasure “go hand in hand” as well, cf. gay sex.

Intended to get pregnant or not, so long as one intended to perform an act that is supposed to (or naturally going to) lead to pregnancy, then one should be responsible for the result of that action.

Again, the nature of human sexual behavior is not solely guided by the purpose of conceiving children. This comment of yours is some form of naturalistic/moralistic fallacy. I don’t really feel like bothering with a comprehensive response when you ignore my points, sorry/

“There is absolutely no explicit or implicit contract with C (the fetus) when A and B agree to have sex.”

My question would then be: does the mother’s act of carrying the child to term constitute an explicit contract among A B and C?

I would tend to agree with Clayton that it does, as to me it seems virtually self-evident that a parent should be obligated to sustain their child at least until they can find someone else to take responsibility. It does bother me a little that Rothbard and Block apparently believe that child abandonment should be legally permissible, but I guess it’s the only consistent position to take if you also believe that the question of when life begins is irrelevant.

When I take a car out for a joyride, my purpose is to have fun, not to cause damage. Am I any less responsible for the damage?

The same as in any murder case: the first person who pursues the case.

If the fetus is not a person, then aborting it is clearly not murder. So let’s assume for the sake of argument that the fetus is a person.

An unconscious person falls off a cliff and you catch them with a lasso. Some time later the person wakes up and starts climbing the rope back up to the top. You say, “Sorry, I changed my mind, I’d like my rope back please. Immediately.”

The act of “inviting” the climber to use your rope was one-sided, since the climber was unconscious at the time. Is it therefore not a true invitation, such as an airplane pilot might extend to a prospective passenger?

Hrmmmm, I think you’ve misunderstood my posts. I’ve explicitly stated that I do not think that abortion or abandonment constitute a dispute (or “contract”) between the mother and the child because the child is unable to speak for itself. In the case of abortion, we are really talking about a dispute over the disposal of the fetal tissue. Prior to viability, there is nothing to dispute… the woman may simply dispose of it and it certainly would constitute aggression for someone to forcibly prevent her from doing so, even the biological father of the fetus. After viability, the exact terms of the dispute would have to be hammered out in court but basically, I think a mother should not be permitted to have the child removed in a manner that does not preserve its life, if the biological father wants to raise it. Such killing seems to me to be gratuitous and immoral. However, in order for the father to assert an interest in having the viable child removed non-destructively, he must be aware of the fact of the pregnancy and must indicate his intent prior to the operation. Failing that, his “right” to the child’s life is lost*.

In the case of abandonment, we’re really talking about a monetary dispute… who pays to raise the kid?? The very existence of publicly subsidized alternatives increases the amount of abandonment by reducing its emotional costs - family does not place as much pressure on parents to stick with it as they would if the family had to pick up the tab when parents abandon their children. It has a similar effect on divorce… it’s much easier to try to walk out from a marriage and try to shirk your financial/household obligations in doing your part in raising your own offspring if you are living under a legal system that is lopsided and makes one side or the other pay more heavily and eases the burden on the other side. Abortion, divorce, child abandonment are all issues that are far too complex to be handled by statutory law and the family in Western society has been visibly blighted by the proliferation of statutory family law. These used to be handled under the umbrella of religious institutions. No one can know from introspection or any other method what is the right solution to these complex social issues. I think we need competitive law courts to really flesh out the details of each case and which will allow new precedents and best-practices to emerge to guide people in understanding the consequences of their actions in marrying, having children, and so on.

Clayton -

*Bear in mind that I’m interpolating here, I’m “guessing” what sort of legal norms would emerge in a natural order legal system… I’m not making fiat normative pronouncements

Would child neglect be punishable in an Ancap society?

I suspect it would be punishable.

Would such punishment be consistent with Rothbardian libertarianism? Perhaps not.