You are free to make the choice, therefore you are free

I was having a conversation last night with two friends. In response to prostitution, one of them said something along the lines of, “You are free, because you’re free to make the decision, you just have to be willing to accept the consequences if you get caught (jail time).”

I shook my head in amazement… I felt there was a wide leap in logic being made, but I couldn’t pinpoint it, so the only thing I said was, “That’s terrible logic.”.

So… is it accurate to say that we are “free” to perform an act the state considers illegal? Or is that question framed in a way that leads to only one conclusion… similar to the “Do you still beat your wife?” question? Answering it within the framework of the question (yes or no) labels you a bad guy. In order to truthfully answer you must ignore or reframe the question.

I’m not even sure what my question is… I’m baffled by my friend’s statement. Any ideas?

On further thought, and I loathe to do this, extending my definition of freedom to encompass this would clear things up. To date I define freedom thusly:

Freedom is the right of an individual to do as they wish with their property, provided they do not infringe upon the same right of another non-consenting individual.

If I change the definition to include something like, “and you won’t get busted for doing so” (which feels like a plea) then it resolves the conflict. But… isn’t that implied?

Ugh, sorry for rambling… hopefully you can help me sort this out. :slight_smile:

your friend is sort of right though not in the way he probably intended.

all government regulation can be reduced to a tariff on things the government doesn’t like and a subsidy for things it does like. In this case part of the tariff is not paid in cash but in criminal charges.

The government is nonetheless imposing costs on individuals that it has no right to do so.

He is conflating self determination with liberty. He is justifying the status quo in that it doesn’t violate ones self determination. Take his reasoning to an extreme and show him that all things are justified given his assumptions, because determination cannot be alienated from the self. If he doesn’t waver, take all his stuff and argue that you have not infringed upon his “freedom” because he can still act.

the easiest way to point out his logic, is to make some absurd yet conditional threat to him, and have him say whether this fully accords with his freedom.

e.g. set him a choice, buy me dinner every night for a month, or dont. a free choice. if you dont i set fire to your house. you are ‘free’ to choose either, though the consequences be what they are,

Agreed, that is a technical illustration of what is happening, now comes Giles…

Agreed. I spoke of the government’s actions as inherently unjust due to its nature. Enter zefreak…

Lovely! It’s like the three of you acted as stepping stones. Naz illustrated the situation, Giles pointed out the illustration is unjust, and zefreak provided the tools to take the logic used to construct the illustration and apply it to another situation! Thank you all!

NUK, succinct as usual. :slight_smile:

By the way, you might want to point out that by his own logic I am entitled to tell him that if he engages in act in Y or X, I will shoot him.

I was beaten to it.

argument race !

He’s playing word games with you. Don’t assume he’s using your definition, ask him to define freedom in his own words. A lot of people who simply don’t know what the hell they’re talking about use pet definitions for terms that justify whatever point they would like to make, perhaps without realizing it. If he refuses to provide a definition, see if he will accept yours. Failure to comply with either request renders his claim meaningless, in which case the only further discussion on the issue should be his apology for wasting your time. If things go really well, an introduction to the NAP may be in order. Assuming he’ll at least be reasonable, non-socialist definitions of freedom usually entail the lack of coercion by others, unless of course one is coercing others. If he’s well read, expect to hear some social contract BS and refute it (again, demand a meaningful definition of “contract” and demonstrate that what he’s talking about does not qualify as such). Assuming he accepts your definition, and the axiom of self-ownership (no, I’m not an Objectivist), challenge him to show that you are infringing on the same right of another non-consenting individual by offering sex in exchange for money. When he is unable to do so, he must accept that the state has no right to interfere in your voluntary exchange. Now may or may not be a good time to introduce him to your gun collection. Good luck!

Your friend is confusing meta-physical freedom or autonomy, aka free will, with political freedom; that is personal liberty and self-direction, usually grounded in self-ownership. While the former is a pre-requisite for the latter, its presence doesn’t imply that the latter obtains; the opposite claim would be a logical fallacy.

This being said, Hart’s criminal law theory rests on something not unsimilar to what your friend defends; i.e., criminal laws are not preventing or barring people from commiting given acts but only fixing the cost they’ll pay to do so. In view of Hart’s attachment to (classical) liberalism and his elaboration of the libertarian conception of individual rights, this can’t be neglected. Of course, Hart’s model is largely sociological and is typically concerned with a definition of legal concepts from inside a legal order. So, he would himself reckon that this is how penalties are seen from the viewpoint of state agents, not what they intrinsically are. And he would consider that the simple fact that penalties are legally valid doesn’t imply neither that they are legitimate nor that the entire legal system to which they belong is justified…

In a nutshell, the fact that the state let you choose between punishment and abstention from exercising your rights cannot be considered legitimate or respectful of freedom; in the sense that the possibility to restrict your choices to those two alternatives is a form of coercion (it limits substantially your liberty, even if it doesn’t completely annihilate it) and that no coercion can be permitted if it is not justified (e.g., in self-defence or to protect the rights of others).

Incidentally, i would largely agree with your definition of liberty. I might just add “with their person and property”…

Re: my definition of freedom, I used to agree with you, but I consider my body my property. To me, property is all-encompassing. However, I understand that few people consider their body their property, and to explicitly include it into the definition may potentially clarify things for some individuals.

You and a few others in this thread have talked about the distinction between freedom and free will, which gave me a brain orgasm. I thought to myself, the ability to distinguish between these two things makes me that much more powerful. It’s like adding another tool to my collection – I can literally do things I was previously unable to. It makes me wonder what other distinctions and ideas are out there that we have yet to accumulate.

Regarding this part in particular…

Lightly reminds me of that explosive thread a while ago about slaves consenting to being slaves by virtue of their actions. (I was referring specifically to slaves living in America’s southern states during colonial times.) Armed with the distinction between free will and freedom, is my position still accurate? Does a slave have fewer choices than a non-slave? Per free will, no. However, the slave does have fewer choices that won’t yield acts of coercion against them. Given this, is the slave free?

I am almost saddened by my own logic… if the slave is free, then I, too am free, despite living under coercion of American government. Does “freedom” require a revised definition? Should we be concerned with length? (I ask this because, at least in programming, if a block of code is too long it should usually be broken into multiple blocks.)

Freedom is the ability to do what you want with your (person or) property, provided you do not infringe on the same right of another non-consenting other, and the decisions made that also do not violate the axiom of non-aggression should not yield violence against oneself?

Whew… that’s a mouthful. Suggestions?

How about…

Hmm… This definition tugs at the back of my mind. I envision an individual angry with a decision I have made and coming after me for it. I think… this definition, for me at least, highlights what we (I?) really want… to be free from violence against others regarding the decisions I make. Perhaps it’s my upbringing, but I feel like there are people who would label me a “pussy” or something similar for wanting this. Hmm…

you’re mistakenly identifying freedom as a boolean value instead of a gradient. the ideal state is maximal freedom (this require time travel and immortality) what we have in reality is a series of constant tradeoffs between freedom and various benefits we can gain by not exercising certain actions that we wish to do.

a long qoute post from Reisman

I have never come across that definition of freedom. It sounds more like a way to slander the word “anarchy” or “anarchist”. “Anarchy”, per Oxford, means simply “no state”. That’s it. (At least that’s one of the definitions – certainly the one I use.)

Gah… here’s part of the entry…

“Absolute freedom” … given the gradient argument by one of the other posters, I’m not sure how to take this. Words suck. :frowning:

If there is some anti-freedom argument, thought or idea that puzzles you it is always a good idea to Rothbard it. Chances are he tackled it and did so well.

http://mises.org/resources.aspx?Id=d94c7567-a276-4328-80e1-7d92cacb759f From TEOL

Also see this LRC Article on a related issue: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig9/brown-c3.html

Man’s inability to fly =/= inherent slaveru

Man’s ability to not get caught =/=political freedom

he’s really just making a point that 'freedom; like most words can have different meaning under different contexts. often people confuse the ‘freedom’ that describes what can and cant be done, with the ‘freedom’ that describes the political (coercive forces) that further can limit mans actions beyond how it is merely restricted by reality.

also granted, there are probably a better word he could have plumped for than anarchic, He started out a Randian so i take it he is a minarchist but no-one perfect. I think overall he is solid here. In the context of the article, and ‘anarchic concept of freedom;’ is one, which does not bear rational analysis, because it posits absurd freedoms, (just that anything that you might desire, you should be free to do), like my freedom as a man to give birth (thank you monty pythons life of brian). Obviously in the context where we are discussing humans, in economics or politics, the political concept of freedom is what we need, and simply the wider ‘freedom’ word that is suitable to describe other things like, the freedom of an object to turn about its axis are not relevant.

He just used symbol manipulation to confuse you, on the word “free.” You said you are not free from a government point of view, and he was saying you are free from a self ownership point of view. It was a clever way of not answering your assertion. So you can just say “you are not free from government intervention when engaging in prostitution.” I would phrase it that way so subtly you are calling him a prostitute but not really.

This might help http://fallacyfiles.org/equivoqu.html