Your opinion about the Hiroshima And Nagasaki bombings

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I can’t answer, because we’re only discussing what is and were.

People have addressed this. You’ve either missed it, or don’t believe it. If you don’t buy their arguments, state why. So far you’ve only made baseless assertions on this matter.

I’m sick of niggling about historical details anyway. It would be a much cleaner arena to say, ‘what if aliens landed in africa and started enslaving everyone and genocide and blablabla’ so that we don’t have to deal with any sticky details.

Education isn’t a sufficient enough answer? I’d imagine it would be similar to how a corporation goes out of business. Its revenues slow, and people stop coming into work.

No, we can discuss hypotheticals without moralizing.

All this flowery vocabulary is a little suspect, but that doesn’t mean they’re fundamentally wrong. You haven’t even put forward an argument about why you think Education isn’t enough.

People have addressed this. You’ve either missed it, or don’t believe it. If you don’t buy their arguments, state why. So far you’ve only made baseless assertions on this matter.

Right. We know that the US intercepted messages indicating that what was stopping Japan from surrendering, both before and after Potsdam, was uncertainty about the demand for unconditional surrender related to the status of the House of the Emperor.

I think it is fairly safe to conclude that the US leaders’ value scales went something like this:

  1. testing their new toy and saving US lives, who cares how many japs die
  2. offering a very limited conditional surrender (the emperor stays in place, so long as the new government is democratic and peaceful), saving hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides, but not getting to use their new toy.
  3. not getting to use their new toy, not offering necessary conditions and drawing out the conventional conflict.

This isn’t just my conjecture that Japan would have surrendered. It’s recorded fact from Japanese-Russian conversations that were intercepted.

It’s just one example of private law and security. There are plenty more. Galileo’s Pisa was a “tiny wind swept enclave” hundreds of years ago, but the sun still doesn’t revolve around the Earth.–olovetto

you cite two extinct and irrelevent cultures from hundreds of years ago as “proof” of the efficacy of anarchic societies. Are you serious? Moreover, I can cite score more of anarchic socities that, you guessed it, no longer exist due to predation at the hands of despotic societies.

Note the paradox of these faith-based anarchists trying to argue the efficacy of anarchic societies when none exist today, and any that have existed have all disappeared without even a whimper. Indeed, I have just read of alexander’s sack of the anarchist fortress of tyre for the “heinous” crime of simply being situated on macedonia’s extreme flank.

Who is illogical ?

Where do you get the idea that libertarians are pacifists? The more valuable a thing is, the more likely that money will be spent to protect it. You’re seriously underestimating how fast private armies (special ops, not mass invasion) would topple states once power accrues. Saying that the world is a different place today is not a valid argument. Anarchic law is carried out in today’s world anyhow.–olovetto

Saying the world is a different place is indeed valid, since technology makes it so. Seriously,any base student of history understands that the geopolitical environment is dramatically different from the days when armies took months to reach the new world,when there were zero democracies, and total war was absent. Today more destructive power resides in a tactical cruise missile than all of the military might of all of the armies from the dawn of recorded history to 1945, yet the olovetto claims that my citing the change is “not a valid argument” ----- this thinking is manifestly absurd.

There’s plenty of historians on my side on this and plenty of spineless state apologists like you. MacArthur still said that the nuke wasn’t necessary in Japan, although he was a maniac – olovetto

Note the paradoxical and contridictory argument — you cite Macarthur as a source to support your argument that japan would have surrendered without the atom bombs, yet you claim he was a maniac. MOreover, you attack my source as “spineless state apologists like me” (although, the emperor of japan’s statement of surrender citing the destructive atom bomb was my primary source), yet your sources are pristine. THis is delusional. It is typical of arguments from faith-based extremists like marxists, anarchists, islamists, et al.

Who is illogical here ??

No, you really have not. There is tons of evidence from messages between Japan and Russia that were intercepted saying that the demand for unconditional surrender, versus letting the emperor off the hook was what was holding them back. Now you are just lying.–olovetto

As I proved unequivocally, the American people (93% of them), the US military high command (virtually all of them, with the noted exception of a “maniac”), the Marines and sailors serving in the pacific would not stand for anything less than unconditional surrender. Your attempt to rationalize this as a viable option is pure anarchist fantasy. Moreover, accepting conditional surrender from japan would signal weakness that would have emboldened our enemies, most notably the USSR.

the Japanese did indeed surrender unconditionally within days after the bombing of nagasaki, the US played the benevolent conquerer by allowing the emperor to remain in his figurehead position. Japan was kept from the communist bloc and today remains a staunch US ally.

The empty arguments regarding the "inhumanity"of the bomb rings hollow when historians look at the close and critical relationship of japan and the USA.

And this is just pulling numbers out of your ass. What do you think this is supposed to prove?–olovetto

the numbers I cited were from a gallup poll conducted at the end of the war show 85% of the American people supported the use of the atom bombs and 93% supported unconditional surrender . Moreover, public opinion happens to matter in the geopolitical arena – do anarchist live in a vacuum where the opinion of 90% of the citizenry is to be discounted and rejected out of hand as meaningless?

This is an example of the delusional lens that these faith-based rigid ideologues view events.

Heroes… lol. I guess the same sort of delusion where statists believe that letter carrying or health care are somehow “special services” which must be performed by government is affecting you. There’s absolutely no reason to believe that private militaries couldn’t or wouldn’t exist given a hypothetical time where a free society coexisted with states.–olovetto

you obviously havent taken the time to read any of my previous posts since I have consistently sided with private enterprises over government in most areas of human endeavor except national defense. Even here, I believe that the democratization of most of the globe would lead to the elimination of the need for vast military expenditures and armies. however, while powerful, expansionist autocratic regimes still populate the globe, a strong national defense controlled within a constitutional civilian led framework is essential.

Your assertion that private militaries could exist in a hypothetical world is just that – fantasy. Note the use of “hypothetical” and “could”— in reality there are absolutely zero examples of this condition. Hence, it is far less plausible then my assertion that peaceful coexistance is more likely attained by the promotion of higher order democracies (who in fact exist today) . and the fact that they have never waged war against one another (democratic peace theory).

Moreover, I challenged the faith based rabble on this thread to develop a hypothetical case study (since they love hypotheticals) to predict a war between higher order democracies – that challenge remains unanswered.

the last quote you responded to, I didnt write. I dont know where you got it. however, your trust in private armies and defense can be undermined by the highest bidder. History is full of mercenaries getting their asses whipped by nationalist and ideologically inspired armies.

the last point that will throughly debunk this fantasyland assertion that private armies can protect anarchic societies is that history is filled with examples of warriors giving the ultimate sacrifice to insure victory for their side.

Indeed, these kinds of sacrifices are common and necessary in order to secure victory in virtually all conflicts.

The very nature of the mercenary is anathema to this kind of essential sacrifice to insure victory. Hence the dismal example of mercenary armies throughout history. For example, why would a mercenary submit to a mission that would likely result in his death? WHere is the profit or the logic in that?

also, none can name any that achieved any notable success. Indeed most have sold out their original benefactors to the highest bidder. they are successful, only until the situation is desperate, then they collapse.

In summary, the anarchist argument for private national defense is absurd considering the brutal nature of war and the sacrifices required to attain success.

It is utterly distinct and unique from economic interactions and thus invalid to assert that private armies are more effective than well trained volunteer armies fighting for an idea as opposed to a paycheck.

I think it is fairly safe to conclude that the US leaders’ value scales went something like this:

  1. testing their new toy and saving US lives, who cares how many japs die
  2. offering a very limited conditional surrender (the emperor stays in place, so long as the new government is democratic and peaceful), saving hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides, but not getting to use their new toy.
  3. not getting to use their new toy, not offering necessary conditions and drawing out the conventional conflict.

This isn’t just my conjecture that Japan would have surrendered. It’s recorded fact from Japanese-Russian conversations that were intercepted – olovetto

What difference does it make what the soviet union and japan were doing. I have repeatedly stated that conditional surrender was not on the table.

That proves my earlier point that anarchist dont have the heart or the will to defend themselves from base evil. They will simply whine and groan while they are shipped to the gulag. As proof, I challenged olovetto to answer whether or not he would use nuclear weaponry. He has not responded.

Note that the nuclear weapon is the archtypical weapon of deterrence. for example, it has been extremely effective at deterring attack from state actors on the nations that possess it. Yet it is as useless as a paper clip in the hands of handwringing pacifists like olovetto, snowflake, cain, et al.

without the will to use force, these anarchists will get bitch slapped out of existence. Thats why there are no anarchist societies. Moreover, the only societies that these faith-based zealots can function in are democracies. clowns like chomsky would be rotting in some cuban, north korean, or saudi prison if not for the benevolence and security of the very society that he rails against ad nauseam

Rettoper’s worldview is like this: There’s a bunch of goody two shoes democratic nations who want to make the world a better place and are best friends. They happen to virtually all be white, own most of the world’s international banks, and control most of what goes on in the United Nations.

Then there are these other places where the color of people’s skin is not so white. They live under democracies and dictators of varying lameness. Because they are not classified by the white-bankers as ‘higher order democracies’, it is okay to kill any of them if you feel like it because maybe they might attack us peaceful nations. If anyone asks, we’re trying to liberate them, despite our unsuccessful track record in nation building.–snowflake

you presume too much snowflake.

my worldview is based on fact. Namely that no higher order democracies have ever waged war. No doubt, any possiblity exists, however it is virtually impossible. indeed the most profitable financial institutions are in these democracies, where there is the most freedom, there is the most prosperity. Should America be ashamed of being rich ? Your condemnation of white-bankers parrots the “logic” of the leftist.

Moreover, if you think the UN is run by higher order democracies, you are ignorant to the real machinations that occur in that organization. For example, both the general assembly and the security council are beset by despotic influences. The islamic bloc, china, russia and most of the 3rd world veto and disrupt most efforts to promote free markets and democracy. The UN actively supports statist policies from global warming, to redistribution of wealth, to centralized control of resources, to “hate speech” restrictions, et al.

your statement that America is racist is absurd since freedom loving, hard working, ambitious people of all races routinely risk life and limb seeking the American dream. It is ridiculous to state these people would risk so much to enter a nation of “racists” Moreover, America enjoys close relations with numerous nations of non-white descent. Indeed many higher order democracies are non-white and non-european. for example, costa rica, chile, uruguay, in the western hemisphere. In addition, there are numerous democracies that are approaching higher order status. in all cases, these nations are within the US sphere of influence.

as for the absurd statement that the USA has a “poor track record” of nation building, I challenge you to cite a nation that has done more to promote peace, prosperity, freedom, and stability than the USA

for example, US hegemony has insured that the Western hemisphere is the most peaceful, stable, and free region of its size in the history of mankind. Moreover, europe is more free, peaceful, prosperous, and stable than at anytime in its tumultous past – largely thanks to American hegemony. Lastly, the asian pacific rim is peaceful, prosperous, stable and free because of the American efforts at checking despotic influences and aggression.

Also, i favor the use of "soft power"to coopt adversaries into the American sphere of influence. However, would the anarchists on this thread support the genocide in rwanda if we could have intervened with minimal risk and loss of life. For example, would these self-aggrandizing humanitarians opposed a small Marine expeditionary force sent to restore order and save millions of lives in the name of their “slendid anarchic isolationism”?

In summary, the United States is the driving force for free markets, peace, stability, and freedom in the world – without it the world would be a very despotic, violent and poverty stricken place. One need only look at areas of the globe that are enemies of the USA or not within our sway — they are poverty stricken, violent, unstable, and despotic. Moreover, look at the state of freedom and free markets before 1776 and the number of free societies before the American Revolution.

Rettoper’s worldview is like this: There’s a bunch of goody two shoes democratic nations who want to make the world a better place and are best friends. They happen to virtually all be white, own most of the world’s international banks, and control most of what goes on in the United Nations.

Then there are these other places where the color of people’s skin is not so white. They live under democracies and dictators of varying lameness. Because they are not classified by the white-bankers as ‘higher order democracies’, it is okay to kill any of them if you feel like it because maybe they might attack us peaceful nations. If anyone asks, we’re trying to liberate them, despite our unsuccessful track record in nation building.–snowflake

The alternative offered by faith-based extremist anarchist is nothing.

this ideology has contributed nothing to promote freedom, peace, prosperity, and stability.

moreover, they have attacked the systems that have done the most to promote freedom, namely the UNited States — while largely silent to brutal regimes opposed to the USA that have murdered tens of millions.

moreover, they have attacked the systems that have done the most to promote freedom, namely the UNited States — while largely silent to brutal regimes opposed to the USA that have murdered tens of millions.

I’m putting the whole article here, since you don’t read links.

Aid to Dependent Dictators

by Bill Walker
by Bill Walker

Capitalism is the most powerful economic force ever developed. The exponential economic growth made possible by private property rights and free trade is the basis for the existence of the modern world. This is no secret; even the Communist Party of China includes “businessmen,” i.e. capitalists, as one of the four pillars of the Party.

So why are so few nations even nominally capitalist? Largely because of America’s biggest welfare program: Aid to Dependent Dictators. Since World War II, US foreign aid has systematically subsidized parasitic governing “elites,” from the nomenclatura of the Warsaw Pact to the kleptocrats of Africa; even the rulers of the “Axis of Evil.”

The Roman Empire extracted tribute from its subject provinces, leaving Roman citizens with a lighter tax burden (at first, anyway). The US Empire instead taxes its own citizens to pay tribute to foreign ruling classes. This may be counterintuitive, but it is a highly effective Imperial stratagem. By subsidizing socialist regimes, Rome-On-The-Potomac prevents the development of competing capitalist centers elsewhere. A tiny expenditure each year to prop up a dictator can prevent the emergence of a multitrillion-dollar economy. What if every poor nation in the world had taken the route of 20th century Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan… or for that matter, the 19th century United States? How much power would State Department proconsuls have if every nation on Earth were rich?

Of course, “tiny” expenditures on foreign dictators add up. Unfortunately, no one can tell you exactly what they add up to, because foreign aid is dispersed and cloaked better than the CIA budget. Official foreign aid is the smallest part of the cost; the majority of foreign Aid today is arranged in back-room deals between money-center banks, dictators, and the Federal Reserve. The “official” foreign aid figures are a lower limit. Even this lower limit is an incredible figure. At an absolute minimum, since WWII more than a trillion dollars has been transferred from US taxpayers to unfree regimes. What would this trillion dollars have become, if left in the private sector? How many trillions of private wealth? And how much of this private wealth would have been invested in the more-free parts of the Third World, providing real jobs and real pride to people who now live in hopeless dependence? Of course, we will never know. Perhaps we would have seen a cancer cure by now, perhaps Mars would have been terraformed, perhaps Washington DC would have had a legitimate baseball stadium instead of a tax-financed atrocity. A multi-trillion-dollar hole in the world economy is too big to visualize.

The real dollar cost of foreign aid is the sum of all official aid, plus all US military commitments not related to US security, plus all bank “loans” to Third World and communist governments. The majority of these anti-capitalist regimes will never be able to, or be interested in, repaying any of this money. The Warsaw Pact alone was estimated to have owed about two hundred billion dollars to Western banks at the time the Berlin Wall fell. Since then, of course, the pace of “loans” to parasite governments has increased dramatically. Counting our continuing defense subsidy to the wealthy nations of Europe and the Pacific Rim, and counterproductive military commitments to puppet regimes in Iraq and elsewhere, US foreign aid must be well over two hundred billion dollars per year.

The World Bank

Even the official foreign aid agencies use accounting methods that make Enron look like a model of honesty and transparency. The World Bank handed out more than 17 billion dollars in 2001. But you won’t find $17 billion worth of expenditures in the official budgets of the funding nations. The 1994 Cato Institute book, Perpetuating Poverty, found that in 1992 the US Congress placed only 3 percent of its World Bank contribution on the budget. The other 97 percent was in “callable capital pledges,” i.e. illegal, unconstitutional, off-the-books debt. Most of the World Bank’s money comes from the sale of bonds, backed by these off-the-books “callable pledges.”

This relatively minor source of foreign aid still gave away $17 billion in one year. While $17 billion might be only a moderate expenditure for Bill Gates, this much money can buy a lot of AK-47s and barbed wire in countries that have per capita incomes less than 400 dollars per year.

The good news about the World Bank is that it wastes a high proportion of its money on administrative costs, more than $1.3 billion in 2002. After all, every dollar spent on overpaid bureaucrats is a dollar less for forced relocation programs, rainforest destruction, and dam projects. And to be fair, while the Bank’s financing may be shady, it issues lots of good reports on the failures of its own programs. In the Bank reports you can read of the bulging Swiss bank accounts of government officials, and the environmental damage Bank projects have caused to the rain forests in Indonesia and Brazil. The bad news is that the only solution the Bank proposes is that we give it more money.

The IMF

Another of the official sources of foreign aid, the IMF, explains some of its financing methods as follows on its web site:

“Off-market transactions in gold. In December 1999, the Executive Board authorized off-market transactions in gold of up to 14 million ounces to help finance IMF participation in the HIPC Initiative. Between December 1999 and April 2000, separate but closely linked transactions involving a total of 12.9 million ounces of gold were carried out between the IMF and two members (Brazil and Mexico) that had financial obligations falling due to the IMF. In the first step, the IMF sold gold to the member at the prevailing market price and the profits were placed in a special account and then invested for the benefit of the HIPC Initiative. In the second step, the IMF immediately accepted back, at the same market price, the same amount of gold from the member in settlement of that member’s financial obligations falling due to the Fund. The net effect of these transactions was to leave the balance of the IMF’s holdings of physical gold unchanged.”

As you can see, Enron accountants have a lot to learn from foreign aid bureaucrats. Speaking of gold, the IMF claims that gold is not important in today’s monetary markets, which is no doubt why the IMF hoards only a bit more than $32 billion dollars worth of the valueless metal. The IMF claims total currency assets of 290 billion dollars. The IMF also maintains a credit line of $40 billion. How much of this leaks away per year? I don’t know how to answer that question, except to say “all of it.” None of this money is going to get back into the private sector except for the part that is stolen and invested through numbered Cayman Islands bank accounts. Let’s hope that’s a large proportion.

The UN

Yet another source of off-the-books income for the world’s monarchs and oligarchs is the United Nations. In addition to dollars, the UN provides free pro-government mercenaries. Upon a “democratic” vote of UN representatives (the majority of whom are representing either dictators or regimes which are “democratic” in theory at best… most of the world’s elections are just as phony as those run by Diebold), armies of “peacekeepers” can be raised and used to support leaders so unpopular in their own countries that they can’t even hire their own thugs. The US provides a disproportionate share of the UN’s income, not least of which is the UN dues from minor dictators… paid out of their US aid money.

USAID

Working our way down to the small fry of the aid world, we come to USAID. Unlike the bigger players, USAID actually has an annual budget request figure you can look up, along with some wild guesses as to other US agency aid expenditures (their guess for FY 2004 is 38 billion).

For FY 2005, the “official” figure is only $8,880,800,00 (but notice that “supplemental” expenditures were almost four billion in FY 2004, and there is no reason to believe that any less will be spent this year).

So USAID is only hitting up the taxpayer for less than thirteen billion every year. It doesn’t sound that bad, surely not as bad as the Department of Agriculture’s mammoth domestic economic drain. But the real problem is the effect on the aid recipients. What does massive aid to a government mean to that nation’s citizens? Let’s look at a few of the most famous cases:

There is a persistent myth that foreign aid rebuilt Germany and Japan after World War II. I don’t know how this myth persists when it is so easy to look up the figures on the 1948 Marshall Plan. There is a perfect reverse correlation between Marshall Plan expenditures and development. The lion’s share of Marshall plan money went to England, which recovered very poorly after WWII. Then France was pummeled with Marshall help, keeping it down as well. Austria and Greece were also proportionally large recipients, and proportionally slow in recovery. (One of the many features of Marshall “help” was that any Marshall expenditure had to be matched with taxes from the donor country, causing a maximization of public sector vs. private sector growth.)

So far from helping Germany, the allies actually stole twice as much in reparations and occupation charges as the Marshall Plan contributed. Germany and Japan both recovered more quickly than England or France in spite of, not because of, the Marshall Plan. In both cases the economic “miracle” was achieved by repudiating price controls and allowing private foreign investment.

Now let’s look at where massive aid didn’t go after WWII: Singapore, Hong Kong, and Taiwan. In each case, the economy grew at over 5% per year. Again, “economic miracle” occurred when price controls were removed, free trade and foreign investment permitted. Equally important was the absence of aid. Local politicians had no choice but to allow some economic freedom, or they would have had nothing to steal from their productive classes.

Unfortunately the majority of the world’s politicians face exactly the opposite incentives. As long as the dictator of a post-colonial African or post-Soviet “republic” prevents the development of a private sector, his regime cannot be overthrown. Year after year, the assured flow of US aid dollars will provide him with a cornucopia of weaponry and wealth. This is exactly what has happened all across the world, from Azerbaijan to Zaire. “Aid” has brought permanent stagnation. In many aid-dominated African nations, incomes are actually lower than they were twenty years ago.

But Could US Foreign Policy Get Along Without Foreign Aid?

Many of my “conservative” friends tell me that US aid programs are a necessity; that without the skillful diplomacy of our aid bureaucrats, the world would be overrun with dictators. That would be terrible, of course. So let’s take a quick look at the effect of US aid programs on the longevity of the most famous dictators:

Stalin: given vast US aid during WWII and after, including the use of US troops and flamethrower tanks to round up and send to the Gulag 2.5 million Russians who had “seen the West.” Died of old age.

Tito: given vast US aid, including nuclear reactors, in the 1950s. Died of old age.

Mao: captured much of his US aid honestly from former warlord Chiang Kai-Shek, though some was transferred from Soviet lend-lease stockpiles ostensibly intended for fighting the Japanese. However, he was aided by US Drug Prohibition, which made south China opium more valuable. A hard-working dictator, who still holds the all-time record for “peasants starved” and “free-style executions,” Mao finally died of old age in the 1970s.

Castro: aided by the US until the Soviets took over the franchise. Then back on US aid again after the Bay of Pigs (ostensibly as a ransom to free Bay of Pigs POWs). Currently protected from the much more powerful and heavily armed Florida Cubans by the US Navy. May die of old age, but cryonic suspension still a possibility.

Ho Chi Minh: To “oppose” his communist ideology, the US took land titles away from peasants, forced South Vietnamese into collectivized hamlets, and dropped seven million tons of bombs on South Viet Nam’s farms and villages. Oddly, these policies failed to stop communism from spreading. He died of old age before the US could give him Thailand, but his political heirs did conquer all of Viet Nam. They received large amounts of US aid after the Viet Nam war.

Pol Pot: killed one third of Cambodian population, so holds the world record for percentage genocide of one’s entire subject population (standing contested by Jim Jones, but Jones ruled not eligible in the “government” category by the Genocide Commissioner). Aided by the US in war against North Vietnamese puppet government until 1986. Died of old age.

His Excellency, Field Marshall, Al-Haji, Dr. Idi Amin Dada, Life President of Uganda, conqueror of the British Empire, distinguished service order of the Military Cross, Victoria Cross and Professor of Geography: aided by the US (and, to be fair, by Israel as well). Later removed by dictator Julius Nyerere. Amin lived long in retirement in Saudi Arabia, due to his adherence to a healthy diet (reportedly, of vegetarians).

Julius Nyerere: Nyerere absorbed vast amounts of US aid while collectivizing Tanzanian agriculture. Died of old age.

Kim Il Sung: Attacked South Korea in 1950. Rewarded later by Jimmy Carter with vast amounts of free fuel oil and two nuclear reactors. Died of old age.

Kim Jong Il: Playboy heir of Kim Il Sung. Has a great video collection, so he must be OK, according to various journalists. In process of producing nuclear stockpile with US-donated nuclear reactors. Won’t die of old age for a long time.

The evidence shows that giving dictators billions of dollars fails to produce any ill effects on their health.

The Aidistanian Peace Corps

For those who look down on Africans and Slavs, and think that we good Amurricans would never go the same way, try a little thought experiment: pretend that America was the “beneficiary” of foreign aid from some hypothetical supersuperpower. Let’s say that whoever controlled Washington D.C. automatically received six trillion dollars per year from “Aidistan,” as long as they accepted a few minor political strings. Imagine George W. in a coalition “reconciliation” government with Senator Clinton, with unlimited funds to create new government departments. Imagine Aidistanian Peace Corps volunteers crisscrossing our country, teaching the uncultured poverty-stricken Amurricans basic hygiene and condom use. Imagine Aidistanian engineers damming the Grand Canyon and building massive soccer stadiums everywhere. Imagine highly paid elite troops, equipped with ultra-high-tech foreign weapons, rounding up the troublesome, primitive, animist ethnic groups (such as Californians) and forcibly relocating them to collective rice farms in Alaska. Imagine all government agencies able to triple in size, and do it without caring about domestic tax receipts. Imagine no-fly zones over the East and West Coasts; imagine high tariffs against US products in foreign markets. Price controls, public housing, socialized medicine, gun control, Drug War, all paid for by super-taxpayers from an outside power. How long would the US economy last under a foreign aid regime?

Welfare-To-Work For Dictators

If Americans truly want to eliminate welfare for dictators, they can do it in two easy steps, both costing less than nothing. The first step is to eliminate all US government-to-government foreign aid, including the no-Congressional-oversight “unofficial” aid that is sent out through bank “loans” and ends up being quietly “monetized” by the Fed years later. This will cost somewhere between negative 20 billion to negative 80 billion every year.

The second step would be to remove all US trade barriers, thus allowing US videos, books, etc. easier access to repressive regimes. This would cost negative 100 billion to negative one kazillion, depending on how much trade increased. The absolute minimum benefit to the global economy is the amount that is now wasted on tariff enforcement and bribes to Congresspersons for trade favors.

Foreign Aid to dictatorships and oligarchies is the least-liked US government activity. Few Americans believe in the Divine Right of Dictators, and fewer still want to pay for it. If libertarian and conservative think tanks want to “cut back government,” “end wasteful spending,” etc., they need to concentrate their educational efforts on ending Aid to Dependent Dictators. At a minimum, there should be web sites where press and public can easily look up:

  1. How much foreign aid there is
  2. Which governments are getting the money
  3. Whom they are killing with it

If we can’t get rid of Aid to Dependent Dictators, how can we expect to get rid of Grandma’s prescription-drug subsidy?

In summary, the anarchist argument for private national defense is absurd considering the brutal nature of war and the sacrifices required to attain success.

It’s painfully obvious that you do not know what you are talking about. Read The Myth of National Defense and argue again when you are not so ignorant.

What difference does it make what the soviet union and japan were doing. I have repeatedly stated that conditional surrender was not on the table.

Read what I wrote again.

I think it is fairly safe to conclude that the US leaders’ value scales went something like this:

  1. testing their new toy and saving US lives, who cares how many japs die
  2. offering a very limited conditional surrender (the emperor stays in place, so long as the new government is democratic and peaceful), saving hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides, but not getting to use their new toy.
  3. not getting to use their new toy, not offering necessary conditions and drawing out the conventional conflict.
    This isn’t just my conjecture that Japan would have surrendered. It’s recorded fact from Japanese-Russian conversations that were intercepted

That proves my earlier point that anarchist dont have the heart or the will to defend themselves from base evil. They will simply whine and groan while they are shipped to the gulag. As proof, I challenged olovetto to answer whether or not he would use nuclear weaponry. He has not responded.

I challenged you to look back through the thread for the link to the nuclear disarmament thread, which has your answer. I think it is funny that you are going to moan and groan like I avoided your answer, when you are too lazy to search it out.

‘you just spent considerable bandwidth attacking the legitimate relatively sophisicated science of public opinion polling from Gallup no less. Note that private enterprises in your utopian anarchist fantasyland would spend billions of dollars (backed by commodity) utilizing this same service to identify trends in consumer sentiment.’

What a wonderful fallacy. Just because some corporation would pay billions for a perceived edge into consumer demand means that said perception is legitimate!

‘Interestingly and amusingly, you did not mention the 900lbs gorilla in the room — the USSR!’

You mean the country we were allied with during WWII? You mean the country that had 13 million of its citizens wiped out? Sure the USSR could of attacked us…after it was finished eating pine cones.

‘Moreover, you seem to think that geopolitical rumblings must occur within a fortnight to establish causation. for example, if the USA had not demonstrated resolve during the cold war, we would still be fighting a Soviet military machine in possession of the whole of continental europe and china in possession of much of the Far east and the asian pacific rim. Indeed, the communist bloc orchestrated the takeover of korea, china, and eastern europe all while WWII was being fought. Yet you naively state they were not a threat?!’

Again, you are assuming that a communist society can exist in modern industrial economy. If the USSR expaned faster it would of only brought its own destruction faster. More and more capital would have been wasted on ineffective ventures and due to its increasing size, errors would be prolific to the point of complete collapse.

‘It is grand naivete and geopolitical ignorance to think that America can sit back in a state of isolationist bliss while the rest of the world crumbles under the boot of despotism.’

Who is the self-righteous humanitarian now?

‘Morevoer they have undermined the very private enterprises and anti-statist government entities and dictates that have done the most to promote freedom and security, namely AMerican capitalism, the Bill of RIghts, and the US Constitution.’

Yes we want to undermine capitalism by…preaching capitalism. Also to destroy freedom by…preaching freedom. It’s a topsy-tervy world.

'No doubt the recent election of Obama and the expansion of government since the 1930’s have been temporary disappointing setbacks, however the overall trend in the promotion of freedom has been positive, thanks largely to the contribution of the United States acting within a Constitutional Federal republic framework thats balances and limits the powers of government.

Government has been growing since 1776. I don’t know where you have been but its not as if 1781 to to 1928 were the golden years of limited government.

Yes the Potsdam Declaration was initially not deemed acceptable by the Japanese government, but then in August they changed their mind and accepted it. And there does not seem to be any easy answers to the question of what caused them to change their minds the most.

Well, the sight of two civilian cities being wiped off the map might have had something to do with it.

No-one argues (I think) that the bombs were not effective. The question seems rather to be: were they justified? The grounds for justification presented thus far appear to be that it saved more lives in the long run, and that the Japanese were an implacable foe who would never sumbit unless they were given a strong enough reason to do so.

Both of these justifications ring hollow when it is shown (and has been) that the Japanese government had attempted to surrender before even the Yalta Conference, and with their plea ignored they geared up for a fight to the death. Thus, Operationn Downfall etc would not have been necessary in the slightest. Given this, the onus swings right back onto the Allies.

Why did Japan’s surrender have to be unconditional? And why was this condition (being as it was the only point of contention) of being able to hold the sword of Damocles over Hirohito (a puppet ruler in the first place) important enough to ignore a surrender plea, continue the war, and necessitate the death of 200,000+ civilians?

These are the questions which must be answered. Thus far, I think the answer has been best explained in terms less than flattering to our beloved 33rd President (and the 32nd, for that matter).

On reading the wikipedia article, operation downfall looks like it was planned to be deliberately disastrous for the allies. They would attack all these heavily fortified, defensively advantageous positions, obviously suffering huge casualties. So it sets up false justification for dropping the bombs: Well we’ve got Option A and Option B, and Option B has been deliberately sabotaged so that Option A is the best.

They know humanitarians were gonna be mad about the bomb, so why not pretend like its the most humanitarian option?

Well the author of Rosevelt’s Road to Russia [referenced in this topic and which I just read] claims the Soviet contribution to Japan’s defeat was “nill”. So for me the question that must be answered is how much truth there is in that, because that is which is occupying my mind right now, other questions I have answered to myself before.

Understandable. The report made by Walter Trohan in the Chicago Tribune on August 19, 1945, exposing the secret surrender terns presented to Roosevelt will make for a compelling case, I believe. You can find it here:

If only this were a new tactic by a government, eh? :wink:

olovetto,

your lengthy cut and paste from walker notwithstanding, can you state a period in european history that has been more peaceful, prosperous, free, and stable than today?

can you state a period in history when the western hemisphere has been more stable, peaceful, prosperous, and free?

and is it no true that the US maintains unquestioned hegemony in these regions ? (NATO and the Monroe Doctrine)

Of course, your response will be based on minutia and circumstantial evidence that America has indeed committed errors in the difficult task of balancing competing powers (walker). INdeed, within the free market myriad mistakes are made constantly. In fact, there are more failed enterprises than successful ones. you and walker have used the same argument that progressives make for condemning capitalism – they identify a failure and hence the aggregate is “bad”.

you and this leftist walker have resorted to minitua and contextually flawed arguments of little significance in the overall scheme to condemn the overwhelming benefits of American hegemony and capitalism. For example, we supported the USSR during WWII to balance the far more immediate and dangerous nazis. In latin america and the asia we supported authoritarian dictatorships to balance and overturn the far greater evil of global communism. what is apparent is that while you claim to be an anarchist, you have no comprehension on how to use power to balance power. Your faith-based adherence of anarchism has clouded your judgment and made you supremely naive in the geopolitical arena.

the anarchist rabble on this thread seem to think that the geopolitical situation is worse today despite overwhelming AMerican dominance and hegemony to that which existed 250 years ago.

do they think the global politik was more friendly under monarchism, mercantilism, chattel slavery, communism, statism, and sharia law?

note that the USA has been a bulwark against all of these abhorrent systems. The US COnstitution has been the framework under which these abominations have been subdued or removed.

For the record,

I understand that the government that governs least, governs best. The less intrusion into our private lives from government, the more peaceful, prosperous, free, and stable society becomes. This fact is irrefutable.

Sadly, the difference between myself and the anarchists differs in how best to reduce the size and scope of government. I believe that they dont have a viable practical solution to reduce government. For example, these automatons dont comprehend the utility in using government to restrict government despite the fact that the world today is unquestionably less despotic than it was 250 years ago – thanks to the USA.

the facts are:

women are more free,

african-americans are more free,

free trade is more abundant,

private enterprise is more abundant,

people work far less for far more goods and services,

travel is easier,

civil and criminal law is more impartial and less arbitrary,

life expectancy is longer,

infant mortality is far less,

expressions of faith are less threatened,

poverty is far less.

the list goes on and on…

IN summary, the USA and its adherence to free markets, individual rights, civil liberties, and aggressive promotion of these tenets is the primary reason that these improvements in the human condition have been realized.

Undoubtedly, we have a long way to go (our two party system are anathema to freedom) , but it appears that these automatons have reserved their invective for the very entity that deserves it the least.

I offered that a balanced budget amendment is a positive step. Also, note that it is irrational to state that government is ever increasing since many times within a constitutional framework citizens have reduced the size and scope of government. Indeed, the socialist nightmare in sweden was made less oppressive recently. Of course, progress backslides and when it occurs it is slow, but the anarchist have nothing to show for their side either now or in past history.

when you say that I am automaton, what in the hell do you mean?

If it is poisoning the well you can join another forum

Government has been growing since 1776. I don’t know where you have been but its not as if 1781 to to 1928 were the golden years of limited government.—cain

Then how can you explain the industrial revolution and the information revolution.

for example, the human condition has improved markedly since 1776, during the period you supposedly claim government has increased.

using your “logic” that would mean that the reduction in infant mortality, increased life expectancy, increased trade, increased entreprenuership, increased technological advancement, improved freedoms, et al came about after the American revolution!??

no you are wrong, government powers have gotten less, individual freedoms have increased – at least they did until 2000 in the USA.

no doubt, we have seen a disturbing spike in government since 2000 and a larger upward trend since 1930. However, the overall (200 day moving average if you will) shows government in decline, albeit slowly.

nonetheless, the incessant and useless whining of the anarchists wont have an effect either way. Indeed, the rigid dogma associated with the anarchists will actually make the effort at reducing government more difficult since their militancy is counterproductive to this desirable end.