Zionism and Libertarians

Miscellaneous General
121

I have to say that the argument of “they’re only home-made rockets which mostly miss their targets” is rather dull. If I make thousands of home-made bullets and fire them at you, even if most of them miss you, I am still initiating force.

Hamas, who rule Gaza, make their intent towards Jews very clear - they want a Judenrein Palestine to replace Israel, and Iran, who we all know is not an innocent bystander, continually funds Hamas as well as their proxy Hezbollah. The Shia Iranians use Hamas and Hezbollah as Shia organisations in a sea of mostly Sunni Muslims (and pesky Jews) to spread Iranian influence. It should come as no surprise that Iran wish to increase funding to their proxies and smuggle more advanced weaponry into Gaza. We’ve already seen Katyusha and Grad rockets, which are more powerful than Qassams. Even with the Qassams, people speak of them being “home-made” like they don’t kill you if they land on your house. They do. Just last month one was fired at a school bus and a 16 year old boy was killed. Aside from costing millions of dollars worth of damage, these rockets, all 9,000 fired since 2000, with a dramatic increase when Hamas took control of Gaza after Israel withdrew all troops and settlers, cause profound psychological damage. I believe that a majority of the population of Sderot, which is in the main firing line, have some form of post traumatic stress disorder and many have fled the town. It’s not as if these things don’t do damage.

122

Okay, I concede that Egypt keeping its border closed is a legitimate action, in a sense. Would you care to retort to the cases of Israel dominating Gazan sea and airspace? This could hardly be called perfunctory or non-aggressive.

123

Tartan, it would be preposterous to even say that. My brother studies in Haifa and he has been near Gaza. The whole place smells of fear, it’s a pity for both Israelis and innocent Palestinians. That’s why Mosad and the Air Force should work faster on those who fire rockets in Gaza.

124

I am not aware of Gaza having any port facility. So, I do not know what would happen if ships where headed for Gaza directly, mostly because I gather it has never happened. As for air space, the place is so small that its physically impossible for anything but a chopper to fly to Gaza and not violate Israeli air space.

125

Yes, Merlin, I agree. I think that Mossad’s policy of targetted assassinations is a very humane way of carrying out a war, since it targets those directly responsible and usually avoids mass civilian casualties that come with launching full-scale operations.

126

Indeed Rothbard would uphold it…wait, except he totally didn’t

127

@Merlin: you did a nice dance around my points. As if having a port is a prerequisite for having access to the ocean; as if having a large area of airspace is a prerequisite for being able to use it. This is hardly libertarian. What a shame.

@Tartan: You kind of missed my point about how we’re talking about utilizing missiles that cost millions to retaliate against some of the poorest people on Earth. This doesn’t strike you at all, honestly?

Sure, Hamas could be construed as an aggressor and a threat, but how exactly does this justify collective punishment?

Finally, this flimsy chain of “Hamas = Iran = Caliphate = Holocaust = Ends justify the means” is so painfully stale. You know, there may be other reasons as to why people in the Middle East have disaffected attitudes towards Israel, and it has nothing to do with some grand scheme for Islamic domination..

128

OK, let’s undance it. Israel has no right to block Gaza’s sea access. Israel has never done this since no ship has ever traveled to Gaza.

Israel has no right to block Gaza’s airspace. Israel has never done this since no aircraft has even been kept form traveling to Gaza without touching Israeli air space (which is impossible to pull off).

129

Merlin said: “In the flotilla case the ships where heading for an Israeli port”

False!

Here’s what the leading Israeli newspaper had to say about the incident:

Pro-Palestinian activists in Istanbul Monday marked the first anniversary of the Israeli commando raid on the Turkish ship the Mavi Marmara as it tried to break Israel’s blockade of the Gaza Strip.

Nine Turkish passengers on the ship, which was part of a larger Gaza-bound flotilla, were killed in the confrontation. The Mavi Marmara has been refitted and is due to sail for Gaza one more time next month.

Here’s the link to the article:

[ View : http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/one-year-on-mavi-marmara-gears-up-for-second-protest-trip-to-gaza-strip-1.365037]

130

Nonsense, and you know it. Real J.B. Say would turn in his grave if he knew someone like you used his name as your login username.

http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2010/06/07/reutersgate20-honor-shame-vs-liberal-msnm/

http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2010/06/03/what-2-minutes-means-depends-on-which-side-of-the-bathroom-door-youre-on-thoughts-on-the-marmara-boarding/

Flotilla was not peaceful, beating and stabbing commandos, who were instructed not to fire, but to turn ship around. Firing upon flotilla members began when that this strategy resulted in commandos facing being killed.

Flotilla was carrying large quantites of concrete and other materials used mostly by those they give these to for building underground tunnels, hence the ban.

http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2010/06/08/from-useful-idiot-to-useful-infidel-meditations-on-the-folly-of-21st-century-%E2%80%9Cintellectuals%E2%80%9D/

131

Those tunnels are necessary for Gazans to have any sort of trade at all- I dont see anything wrong with what the Flotilla members did, it was the Military’s decision to board the ship, I don’t feel sorry for people who were defending stupid policies of starvation. I think its nonsense that the IDF only fires on houses that fire rockets, they routinely slaughter people whenever they feel like it. Of COURSE that doesn’t mean that any palestinians firing rockets is in the right, it certainly accomplishes nothing as it just continues senseless violence, but I don’t see why every criticism of Israel’s military policies is somehow seen as support for rockets in sderot.

To place the IDF or Mossad on the side of humanity just doesn’t make any sense. They kill indiscriminately all the time. Everytime they launched a full-scale assault on Gaza was always proof enough, nevermind the daily potshots at Gazans whenever their military members feel like it, or israeli warships blowing up a family having a picnic on a beach. To think the problems and bloodshed amongst the two sides will end if one takes a different more “humane” approach to killing(whatever that really means), sounds a bit crazy to me.

132

Is Israel never initiating force? Is the only reason there is violence is because Palestinians hate jews and want to throw them all in the sea?

133

The lion said: “Nonsense, and you know it. Real J.B. Say would turn in his grave if he knew someone like you used his name as your login username.”

Did you even read what I wrote? I said the Mavi Marmara was heading to Gaza and not to Israel as Merlin claimed. Nowhere did I discuss the peacefulness or not of the activists onboard the ship.

134

You can’t fool all the people all the time: the reality of what Israel is can no longer be hidden by slick hasbara.

Israel remains one of the world’s most negatively viewed countries alongside Iran, North Korea and Pakistan, according to the latest annual survey of global opinion by the BBC World Service. But most significantly, according to full results of the survey:

While overall views of Israel have not moved substantially over the past year , there have been significant increases in negative views of the country among Americans (negatives rising from 31% to 41%) and Britons (from 50% to 66%).

In total 28,619 citizens in 27 countries, were interviewed face-to-face, or by telephone December 2, 2010 and February 4, 2011 by the firm GlobeScan on behalf of the BBC.

The poll does not give reasons for why this shift has taken place, but this erosion of support for Israel is no doubt due to a combination of factors: Israel’s brutal massacre of Palestinians in Gaza in winter 2008-2009, the ongoing siege and the massacre aboard the Gaza Freedom Flotilla last May, as well as the general aura of extremism and intransigence conveyed by the country’s actions (continued settlement in the occupied West Bank, ethnic cleansing in Jerusalem, racist laws against Palestinian citizens and so on).

135

Because we all know that majority opinion is the only test of truth and valor :slight_smile:

136

And how do you know that the IAF blasts everything indiscriminately, or that Mosad cops whoever they feel like, or that the Gaza incursions are just good ol’ pillaging expeditions? Because one side tells you it is so?

Look guys, it’s a place thousands of miles form most of us, and most of us get only whatever information comes out of the cacophony on Israel and Palestine.At the very least we should not hold strongly on whatever belief we have come to on the issue. I myself am discussing here because my brother gives me all the info he can get there (the debate that’s going on here went on between me and him on Skype).

So, let’s face it: we have no real information of the thing, so we can only agree on universal solutions: the US should leave both Israel and Palestine in peace, even if Israel would not like that, and borders should be set by referendums. Over this, we’re certainly overconfident when we pretend we can know the issue form here.

137

“I would support foreign aid only if I hated the human race.”

  • Thomas E. Woods, Jr.
138

I would think all people who know basic economics would agree that foreign aid is bad idea, including you, me, and probably most people on this forum. I would further venture that most of what falls under diplomacy and intervention does not help any country to which it is applied, and merely annoys taxpayers (you, me, and so on on). It should cease; agreed.

But I would also venture that lack or surplus of information about foreign issues is not the issue when it comes to discussions of Israel, as has indeed happened in this thread. Because whenever Israel or “Zionism” is brought up, discussion usually turns in direction lamented in this cartoon:
http://drybonesblog.blogspot.com/2011/06/court-of-public-opinion.html

Primary reason that issue occur in Middle East is because enough people there do not want capitalism, and consider Americans and Europeans, which most Jews are, as “imperialists.” Palestine, and other such territories, would be peaceful places if Palestinians behaved like the Japanese (“Japanese society exhibits a multilayered, onion-like structure, where old and new elements coexist flexibly and different characteristics can surface depending on the circumstance” (Ohno, 2006, Economic Development of Japan).

Socialists here and there, among Jews and not-Jews, who try to calm, say Palestinians and their Neighbors, and even some libertarians, have not figured it out that:

(1) Palestinians do not, so far, behave like the Japanese, and

(1) the relatively high standard of living of even the laziest delinquent who works in capital-rich countries, not to mention the average person, and their resulting average productivity and thus wage, is due to accumulated capital,

(2) makes many poorer people (most people) of, say, Palestine and Egypt and many surrounding areas, resent foreigners,

(3) and since in those territories (i.e., in Palestine, Egypt, and so on) HONOUR is IMPORTANT,

(4) those people cope with resentment and what they see as shame by venting their anger through violence against “those who shamed them by mere existence”.

So when IDF or Mossad refuses to accept such violence, and says that they would fight “those who kill Jews,” and retaliate against thugs, which brings more shame on violent fanatics, since fanatics usually lose. Less of their honour remains after that, and they get even angrier, and appeal to world opinion that invaders are bullying them.

Same situation was border conflict between USSR and China during Mao’s time, for instance.

Mao started it by attacking Russian border force. Russia retaliated with column of tanks, which killed plenty of Mao’s troops at border. Which shamed Mao further. Which caused him to declare he prepare for thermonuclear war, and that “he” is next in line after Stalin. Russians told him they’ll retaliate without blinking an eye, and diplomacy had to be restored, after Mao got scared.

139

Thelion, would you ‘spare’ a thug who killed someone dear to you because the thug ‘has issues’? Because this is the impression I got from your otherwise agreeable post.

140

Hopefully my post does not give impression that I would spare any thugs. I agree, I do not think “issues” are any excuse, ever, for violence. Hence, I do not advocate pacifism on Israel’s part, and agree that fighting thugs is required, even if it makes thugs more angry due to additional “shame.” That is, I agree with IDF mission statement as it stand.

What I meant was, rather, that the problem has nothing to do with Israel, despite what many people say, and is not fault of Israel. Any industrialized entity which has different social behavior, were that entity to buy territory in that location, and we would have same problem, merely because presence and relative industrialization of foreigners, any foreigners, “shames” Palestinians et al, in their own opinion.

There is no solution, because “shame” is not a rational or workable concept, and has caused just as much trouble during European feudalism, for instance. That, however, won’t stop Palestinians et al for feeling “shame” and “struggling” against those whom they think “offend” them.

Their problem, not ours: my opinion.

American and European Socialists then claim misery, caused by all this sentiment, is “caused” by “evil” Capitalists, Zionists, Westerns, Imperialists, etc., etc. That is because, those who are poor can do no wrong, in their eyes.

And it is “caused” by us, apparently: Because anything that we do, as capital-wealthy countries, apparently, will “offend” and “shame” and make angry those people who dislike behavior that made us capital wealthy. And will “incite” violence.

In the 1880’s Japanese reformers started building Western houses, which became fashion. In 1930’s Palestinians started progroms against Jewish owners of land.

In the late 1870’s Japan allowed free trade province to province. In 1820-30’s Pasha of Egypt turned Egypt into single giant government farm, expropriating all land owners and taxing away all profit in same time he brought in foreign engineers.

See the difference in pattern of response?