9/11, WTC 7, and stuff

I have no intention of attempting to persuade you that what I have asserted is true [it is impossible to so do, anyway].

Like anyone else, you must do your own research and reach your own conclusions and take responsibilty for them. This can take a lot of time if you choose to devote serious thought to the subject.

If you are interested in persuing that avenue of thought [i.e. fake victims] you might start with the last two links I gave in my 2nd. post in this thread.

Further food for thought might be provided by this excellent article at “Veterans Today” : " 911 “MISSING” Posters of Disembodied Souls"

Regards, onebornfree.

Is there one book in particular that is a good first read on this subject? On 9/11, I’ve only seen a documentary by Jesse Ventura.

@That Old Guy: Click on the link; that’s the best book to start with, only keep in mind that it was written not long after 9/11 so new supporting evidence has been uncovered in the meantime. Just search “David Ray Griffin” on Amazon.com for more info.

It’s at teh liburry! Thanks!

Better get mama’s pryin baar.

Onebornfree,

I read the link about the fake posters on the wall. It certainly is interesting. The only problem I have is, if I’m willing to believe that someone is capable of faking airplanes flying into buildings and creating fake, vitual identities, then I must also consider the possiblity that a photo of missing posters could also be faked. It gets to the point where, unless you actually were at the WTC the day of, there is really no point in believing anything at all.

I wash mahself with a raag on a stick.

This is a really good counterpoint to the claim that they were actors. It seems that it would have been easier to actually kill 3,000 people than to use the WTC complex as one huge movie set for years and with actors and all*.

*Although, i like the idea. God, I love this forum.

The only way I can see this happening is if the investigators seized or if witnesses turned in their camera rolls to the investigators. I think that their may be lost camera rolls in basements that have been forgotten about.

But it seems that it would have been easier to actually fly planes into the towers and then blow up the WTC.

This is a good point; however, there aren’t that many videos that have the camera actually tracking any planes–I can’t think of any. Most of the shots are of a wide view of the towers; so, tracking wouldn’t have been necessary to show planes flying into the towers.

Great! Now I’m going to be on a Wikipedia tanget for hours. :smiley:

I’m sorry but I can’t just let this one go. You can’t just say it’s an actor and then move on. These “actors” have families, neighbors, relatives, coworkers, etc… I mean, aren’t these people still walking around today? Aren’t some of the wives of the men on board the planes still doing interviews? Surely some acquantance would stand up and cry foul!

I’m thinking the same thing. At some point these theories become so absurd, that the logical connections no longer make any sense. Onebornfree, not trying to insult you, but some of your theories are becoming less plausible than the Mayan doomsday prophecy. You do have quite a bit of imagination though.

No doubt - one of the most absurd theories is that 19 men armed with boxcutters hijacked and crashed 4 planes, collapsing three steel buildings to the ground - all three collapsing symmetrically and directly into their own footprints - and penetrating the most heavily defended airspace in the world to actually strike the Pentagon - the nerve-center of the entire US military, a building designed to withstand nuclear blast, connected via underground tunnels to the White House and other buildings in the DC area, and which frequently has the presence of SecDef and VP and occasionally even POTUS. And, of course, no one ever dreamed that flying an airplane into any government building was a possibility because it is just so evil who could even think of such a thing. Oh wait, it actually happened back in 1994. And they were war-gaming a similar scenario less than a year before 9/11. Derp.

Don’t forget that hyperbolic conspiracy theories are actually a disinfo tool. They operate by “injecting noise” into the public discourse, frustrating the attempt to communicate reasonable, skeptical theories contrary to the official orthodoxy. When you say “I think it was an inside job” the first things a person unfamiliar with the reasons for doubting the official story might think of are UFOs and anti-semitism. Why?

Clayton -

I think it may be a combination of both - my understanding is that office space in the WTC towers was woefully undersold and the towers had been a money sink for years. The first strike was actually pretty high up and the top floors are not all habitable (lots of service floors at the top). Add it all up and the body count is probably vastly exaggerated. But yeah, I’m sure people were killed.

Clayton -

As far as the airplanes being fabricated, didnt sheeple have testimony on the matter? Im sure tere were alot of people traveling out and about when this incident happened..

This is from Wikipedia about Jeremy Glick, 1 of the passengers on Flight 93 that crashed in Pennsylvania.

“Glick attended Saddle River Day School in Saddle River, New Jersey. On August 31, 1996, he married long-time girlfriend Lyzbeth. The two were prom king and queen in 1988. The couple had a daughter, Emerson, born on June 18, 2001. They named her after the author Ralph Waldo Emerson. Glick has five other siblings, all of whose names begin with the letter ‘J’. He was a middle child among the six children of his family. Glick was an American National Collegiate Judo champion — while he was a student at the University of Rochester in Rochester, New York,[1][2] where he was president of the Rochester chapter of the Alpha Delta Phi fraternity — and later he worked as a sales and marketing executive for Vividence, an e-consulting company in San Mateo, California. Glick was a resident of West Milford, New Jersey.[3]

Onebornfree would have us believe that Jeremy Glick was nothing more than a computer simulation. He didn’t exist. This, however, should be easily verifiable. Is there a court document verifiying his marriage to Lyzbeth? Is there a birth certificate for Emerson? Is there a record of him enrolling at the Univ. of Rochester? I bet there were fraternity brothers who remember the guy, and coworkers at Vividence. Perhaps there is a fake doctor’s signature on his daughter’s birth certifacate. You get the point. I wonder if the so called investigators of this hoax have contacted Vividence for information?

An entity would have to have been virtually omniscient and omnipotent to pull off the scenario described by OBF. Nevertheless, the government’s story is no more believable and there are other, much more credible hypotheses.

We can even posit for the sake of argument that the video footage is all 100% real (more or less the view I’ve held for the last three years or so). It doesn’t change a thing regarding the believability of the government’s story. WTC 7 collapsed in an inexplicably symmetrical manner and it collapsed for no good reason at all (thermal expansion? seriously NIST??). In fact, all three buildings collapsed symmetrically, at near free-fall speed and directly into their own footprint. Even if you posit that a jetliner could knock down a steel building (and there are serious problems with this assumption), the WTC 7 collapse doesn’t follow at all and the manner of all three collapses remains inexplicable. This isn’t a “thousand-moving parts” hypothesis, it’s very basic Logic 101 stuff.

If you’re looking to validate/invalidate the government’s story or competing hypotheses by wondering at the impossibility of people disappearing, you’re doomed to failure. People ruthless enough to brazenly endanger the lives of tens, even hundreds of thousands of people - for the express purpose of mounting a false-flag attack to scar the national psyche and prepare for a new era of increased militarization, police-state and decades of otherwise unjustifiable wars that would result in the murder of as many as a million Iraqis, tens of thousands of Aghanis and thousands of Americans in foreign lands - are certainly ruthless enough to mount a real hijacking and kill dozens of people in cold blood.

Perhaps they took the patsies by surprise on what they were told by their handlers was just another connecting flight to yet another city for more hooker- and coke-filled nights. It could have been performed by “the most dangerous people on the face of the earth” (or maybe these people who are probably more deserving of the title Murder Inc). The real hijackers could then fly the plane out over the ocean and blow it to bits after jumping out with a parachute, or land it at some remote/deserted airbase (three of the planes had enough fuel to fly at least 3000 miles from NY to LA) and simply line everyone up, shoot them in the back of the head and dispose of the bodies by a secure and convenient means. Who’s talking? These guys aren’t boy scouts, they’re “made men” in the world’s most powerful mafia, the USG.

It strains credulity beyond the breaking point to suggest that you could fake the plane takeoffs so the planes were real and what goes up must come down. They may have reused destroyed pieces from the real planes to plant fake evidence at the various crash sites. I’m undecided on whether all the 9/11 plane victims are genuine. Some almost certainly are - it would make sense to at least execute the suicide hijackers wouldn’t it?

In the end, the details don’t really matter. What is undeniable is that the government is lying and that our rulers (only some of whom are actually in government) carried out a brazen and purposeful false-flag attack in order to dupe the country into signing up for an orgiastic expansion of Federal power both at home and abroad: Iraq, Afghanistan, Gitmo, DHS, TSA, the PATRIOT Act, the Military Commissions Act, the REAL ID Act, TARP and the multi-trillion dollar bailouts and other Fed interventions, and now the latest and creepiest installment of all: the NDAA.

Clayton -

The wars are what they care about. They don’t care about domestic affairs in the US anymore than thry care about Indonesia. 9/11 was a message to those in the world (not necessarily the US) that “we are willing to do whatever it takes, even attack ourselves.”

Russia is the main country that is being “talked to” by any of our geopolitical affairs. Russia knows we are forcing China to consider Russian oil and gas reserves and are adjusting to the scenario while trying to gain Chinese (vs USA) influence in the region. October and November will be interesting months.

The neocons don’t but they don’t run the show, either. They’re just a deluded bunch of apocalypse-obsessed, power-worshipping war fanatics, kind of like George C. Scott’s depiction of Patton delivering a soliloquoy on the beauty of war… these are people who go to the movies to watch Dark Knight Rises and mistake it for a documentary… the ones that wrote and signed the Project for a New American Century.

The fact is that our rulers care very much about domestic affairs. Whence else all the cameras and the exponential increase in surveillance powers and the TSA psy-ops in the airport, softening us up to constant violation of our privacy by literally sexually assaulting us for deigning to travel by air??

And I don’t believe that actual foreign policy (the policy reviewed and approved by the higher-ups, that is, the people the President answers to) resembles at all the saber-rattling nonsense promulgated for television. Even WWI and WWII - the supposed pinnacles of “all-out” war for territory and power - were not in earnest. No sane ruler would put his entire holdings at risk like that. Anyone who ever ruled in that way was quickly weeded out centuries or millenia ago and their offspring long since ceased from the Earth. No, real rulers are a conservative bunch and they have a great deal more in common with each other than they have with us, the commoners.

They (the Elites, the ruling Establishment, the Statist Quo) have been working together in an uneasy confederation for well over a century with a common aim of bringing about a world government and world taxing/banking system, motivated by their greatest fear, the Race to the Bottom. These wars may claim untold human lives but their purpose is not to gain territory, except at the margins and only in plausibly deniable ways (that is, in ways that are not blatant defections). The purpose of modern, total warfare since at least the time of the Civil War is almost exclusively propagandistic. Orwell explained this in 1984 as clearly as possible. Never-ending war is a crucial component in the construction and maintenance of their planned system of perpetual global serfdom.

The Elites simply unleash the maniacs at the American Enterprise Institute every once in a while to give the public some “Shock & Awe”. It is done on cue and with an aim to dislodge apathy in the right direction and at the right moment.

Clayton -

Interesting wikispooks article. 9/11:Israel did it:

http://wikispooks.com/wiki/9/11:Israel_did_it

No single national government pulled it off. The dancing Israeli nationals are a pretty clear indication that Mossad was involved but that’s as far as that goes. Please go back and watch Carlin’s segment on the real owners of this (and many other) countries. It’s not the Jews/Zionists/Israel. It’s not Halliburton or the neocons. All real power is private. Public power is an illusion.

Four years later in 2005 an attack with a similar MO fingerprint to 9/11 would occur in London. Madrid was hit in 2004. Bali, India, etc. were bombed. These attacks were not perpetrated by rag-tag amateurs over the best efforts of the global intelligence community to stop them. They were either directly performed by the intelligence services themselves or by duped patsies under the direction and guidance of the intelligence services.

The stargate between the world of private power (think royalty/nobility/industrial-tycoon-patriarchy) and the world of public power (ala voting, elections and all that nonsense) is the Military-Industrial Complex, that is, the intelligence and cryptographic services, surveillance services (especially satellite surveillance), black ops military groups and - the crown jewel of them all - the nuclear agencies. These organizations are inherently international and comprise an inscrutable network of revolving doors and secret passageways. They lie beyond any possibility of public scrutiny under layers and layers of legal and political protections. National security is one thing. Nuclear national security is light-years beyond that. No court, investigative service or legislative body in any developed country in the world would even dare question concerns of nuclear national security. This is the final refuge of the Elites and it is what gives them the power to operate with impunity.

Any national government is nothing more than a Wizard of Oz. It is a grand illusion designed to impart the false belief that our rulers are much more imposing and powerful than they actually are. Behind it all is a tiny number of wrinkled, little, old men with no remarkable mental or physical traits besides an inexhaustible capacity for conniving and a complete lack of empathy or concern about the consequences of their actions on anyone who isn’t part of the in-group. I don’t know their names but you could start by looking at chivalric orders such as the Order of the Golden Fleece to begin to get the idea.

People always look in the wrong place when performing power elite analysis. It is not the formal, transitory power networks created by government administrations that you should be looking at, it is the permanent, informal networks of private power created by blood relations, marriage, ethnicity (historical, not necessarily geographical), territorial colocation, and so on that you should be looking at if you want to understand how power really works in the world. Everything’s new and different… yet nothing has really changed.

Clayton -

Everyone in this tread is a nutjob.