shruggs shoulders Perhaps the airplane had a really strong frame, creating a knife effect. The bulding’s steel structure could have been designed to withstand bending of the building as a whole, but not an airplane crashing into it
Also, what was the facade made of? Why did it break apart as it did?
On one level, in the general sense, I can agree with you. We both agree it was an inside job, right? And actually I would submit that that is just about as much as most persons who have done a good amount of research into 9/11 could actually agree on- essentially because the fact of methodological individualism ultimately ensures that no two persons can ever have the exact same theory as to what “really happened”.
But on an individual level, things might be a little different.
If an individual comes to believe what myself, Simon Shack and others all believe, i.e. that the alleged MSM “live” broadcasts were all pre-manufactured fake footage, then I would submit that that belief would have a huge impact on an individuals world view and overall philosophy, perhaps similar in scope/size to the “red pill” effect of Austrian economic theory.
Which is not to suggest that you, or anyone else “needs” to believe the same things I do. As with anything else, [e.g. economics] an individuals conclusions about what happened on 9/11 are ultimately decided by how much of the existing evidence is exhaustively reviewed/re-reviewed, and most importantly the pre-existing mindset/bias [i.e operational review methodology, if any] of the person reviewing all of that “evidence”.
Regards, onebornfree.
Neither am I. Regards, onebornfree.
It was? Damn, I missed it. Is there some way you could “arrange” to keep it there, permanently Daniel?
Regards, onebornfree.
Yes, but if it was lighter , how did it manage to penetrate WTC2 in one piece, without even slowing down, like “a knife through butter” in total contradiction of Newtons 3rd Law of Motion? Wouldn’t parts [such as the tail section and wings] have been torn off at initial impact? On the assumption that if shown live, the plane penetration had to be flawless, mistakes could not be allowed to happen to achieve intended “shock and awe”, then the only way to ensure such perfection would be to broadcast a computerized simulation of the plane crashes into the buildings, I submit.
But that is not what the videos and post crash photos depict. All show steel girders and floor trusses [steel filled with concrete] severed to match the approx. profile of a 757, even to the wingtips.[ I won’t post links to post crash plane-hole in building facade photos- it is easy for you to find 1000’s of online examples]
My point was the contradiction between “there aren’t many” ,[which implied there are some, or at least one], and “I can’t think of any”.
Regardless there are some. Here is one:
Now, your initial reaction to that short video should be something along the lines of “but that does not show the camera tracking the plane” [ignoring for the moment the very important question of just exactly how the cameraman was prescient enough to have his camera already pointed at the perfect spot to capture the event in the first place] , however what a slow motion analysis reveals is that the camera tracks the plane perfectly, to the extent that for the last few frames before impact the tail of the plane remains in the exact center of the frame, even while the plane is still supposedly moving to the viewers right at the alleged speed of 500mph, as can be seen here:
Notice that the tail of the plane remains exactly centered in the frame [red line] and that in reality, it is the building that moves towards the plane , and not the plane towards the building as it should have been.
Regards, onebornfree.
This is an incorrect conclusion, at least according to the FBI’s Shanksville report , in which it claimed that nearly all of Fl. 93 disappeared and was completely buried underground, including all bodies ! I’ll see if I can find a link to that report if you need it, but cannot put my finger on it at this time.
Regards, onebornfree.
P.S. any such FBI “report” is an even greater violation of Newton’s 3rd law of motion than occurs with the “Roadrunner” cartoon physics of Fl.11 entry into WTC1 and Fl.175’s entry into WTC2, as far as I can see, considering that even though they were 500,000 ton steel and concrete structures designed to withstand plane impacts, the towers were at least hollow, stand alone objects, not a part of the actual planet itself, which weighs how much?
JJ,
It wasn’t supposed to be proof of anything. Unfortunately it provided an out for OBF to skirt my question again, so, I’ll repeat myself 1 last time.
Who have you or your fellow researches contacted to verify whether Jeremy Glick, or others like him, was a real person?
What answers did you receive?
If you have not contacted anyone, why haven’t you? Don’t you feel this is kind of important information based on your theory that all the victims in the 9/11 attack were fake?
Physics explains the “roadrunner effect” ironically, despite the conspiracy nutters trying to use it as an argument of their own.
The higher the speed and mass of collisions is, the less of a role elasticisity has. The collision becomes completely plastic. The tensile strength of the colliding materials (aluminum of plane against steel of building) doesnt play a role any more, only their kinetic energies do. And the wings loaded up with fuel, had such energy that the elastic resistance of the colliding materials didnt play a role in slowing down the rest of the plane, Throughout the collision the plane maintained its momentum as an inelastic collision does.
As I recall, the pretext for the invasion of Afghanistan actually required bin Laden’s denial of responsibility. Remember Bush demanded that the Taliban turn over bin Laden, and they (rightly) insisted that the US provide some evidence of his guilt before attempting to capture and extradite him. This was presented as proof of the Taliban’s complicity and the distraught public ate it up. If OBL had made any kind of plausible confession, leading the Taliban to cooperate, how could the invasion of Afghanistan be sold?
They would have characterized it as necessary to prevent the use of afgh as a base for further operations. Besides if there is one group that western society would tolerate Ggressive war against, its the taliban.
OBF,
Our arguement is whether airplanes hit the towers; thus, the videos being faked to show airplanes.
With regards to the second strike, there must have been hundreds on people looking at the towers from buildings that were facing the towers when the second projectile hit (unless you’re arguing that no projectile hit the second towers).
Where are the witnesses that claim that no airplane hit the second tower?
This is why I think the “nothing whatsoever hit the towers” and its companion “the planes were holograms” hypotheses are untenable. Simon Shack theorizes that a cruise missile such as the JASSM or something with a similarly “plane-like” profile could have been used.
In this case, there really was something that flew into and penetrated each building. While eye-witness reports in any situation are problematic both due to the fact that not everyone is careful in describing what they experienced and some people naturally resort to hyperbole to get attention (cf TWA flight 800), there actually are many eye-witness reports from multiple people saying things like “a small plane”, “no windows”, “like no plane I ever saw”, “a missile”, “making a missile sound” etc. I think Simon Shack has a clip of one eyewitness pretty much muttering to himself “I can’t say what it was”, not as though he didn’t clearly see it but as though he saw it very clearly and was simply unable to bring himself to utter the truth.
Remember, there were no live broadcasts that depicted the airplanes’ penetrations through the faces of the twin towers. The live broadcasts only caught the second plane coming in from the side or the back (relative to the camera) of the building. With the remaining close-up footage collected from purported news-crews, the hoaxers would have had to work quickly. But supposing they had done their homework ahead of time, it would have been a fairly straightforward process of running the video through a software package to layer on the prepared images depicting the entry of a passenger jetliner into the building at the exact moment as the cruise missile hit. They may have had to make some slight adjustments here and there to work around any problems but this is not likely as the cruise-missile would have penetrated the building at the precise location and angle it was designed to - the US military has boasted for decades - starting from at least the first Gulf War - of its capacity to put a cruise missile “down a chimney”.
The original, unedited footage would actually show the cruise missile for a few frames. The jetliner footage is simply “pasted on top.” By late afternoon, they could have released a trickle of carefully checked and double-checked sequences clearly depicting commercial airliners (not missiles) entering the buildings, thus quashing the very small number of eyewitnesses who might have had a clear view of the approach and a sufficient sense of proportion as to realize that what hit the building could not have been an airliner. But 300 million Americans who saw detailed, close-up video shots of a commercial airliner plowing into each building would clearly outweigh the testimony of a few eyewitnesses whose testimony can easily be explained away as the result of stress, seeing the real aircraft at a wrong angle, hyperbole or any number of errors. It’s irrefutable when you have frame-by-frame footage showing airplanes, not missiles, entering the buildings.
This is the part they didn’t mess up. It went perfectly to plan. And I have a theory on this too (surprise!). I think that some of the folks who had been involved in JFK’s assassination when they were very young (could still be less than 70 years old) were in on this, too, at least playing an advising role. The lessons from the Zapruder film and other botched evidence, photos, videos, etc. The body of evidence from that event is almost entirely fabricated but a lot of the fabrication was post hoc and bears the marks of desperation. See here for to get started.
That’s why the twin towers are what is shown in almost all debunking videos and articles. How crazy do you have to be to doubt the official story?? Just look with your eyes. See? Plane. Building. Boom. Building fall down. Come on!
But it’s WTC 7 and Flight 93 that they screwed-up on big-time and that’s why these are the proper starting points for prying open the bullshit surrounding 9/11. Had they not messed up WTC 7 and Flight 93, there would still be conspiracy theories but it would have been orders of magnitude more difficult; it would pretty much have been the perfect crime.
Clayton -
I was directing that towards onebornfree. It seems there would be better forums, focused solely on 9/11 if that was his/her “passion”, for lack of a better word.
Thank you for the link. I hadn’t seen that website before. Videos worth watching: one; two
No one is. And I didn’t say anyone is.
In the video you posted, the demolition expert said it wouldn’t take that long, and he offered the idea the owner may have made the decision afterwards. I don’t believe the decision was made afterwards, but it’s a possibility.
That’s what I was getting at. Even at proportional weights (the top would have been proportionately less heavy. read: smaller supports, fewer packed offices, etc) ⅔ holds up ⅓. The first tower was hit more around the ninetieth floor, too. Anyway, physics tells us the bottom portion would have resisted the top portion, and the only falling that should have happened was the top falling off. This smart lady knew that in real time.
**
Thank you for the info.
By fall guy, I meant scapegoat. So, not a patsy like McVeigh, but my point was his taking credit for it, when he realized it would suit his cause; and that was the better option than trying to prove innocence or somehow escape our authorities murderers. I agree with what you’ve said here. Related video.
Most people don’t believe in those conspiracies either. They might think there were more than one shooter, or whatever, but most don’t believe our government were the ones who actually committed the act. Obviously they need to figure it out for themselves, but they’re not going to be able to do that if we don’t lead them in the right direction, or help them out somehow. It’s not going to come to them in an epiphany. Which is why we need to steer them clear of ridiculous theories, such as no planes, etc. What better way to make them “realize that the State is a corrupt, lying, parasitic, tyrannical beast” than to prove to them 9/11 was the work of their beloved leaders overlords?
Clayton:
Perhaps the only footage from news broadcasts are from the north, because to be from the south, you’d have to be in the port/river/ocean. The Empire State Building seems to be the vantage point of most of the broadcasts. It does seem strange that nobody perhaps visiting the Statue of Liberty (to the southwest) were video taping (even before the first plane hit). Maybe it wasn’t open yet, I don’t know.
Regarding the “dancing Israelis” you mentioned earlier. “Advise the message about the remote-controlled plane,” and, “It’s a big truck with a mural painted of an airplane diving into New York City and exploding”. WTF?
Really? So then how did it come to you and I and the people we read and the people they read and so on back to the first persons to say to themselves, “this doesn’t make sense”? The fact is that society doesn’t need us or any other kind of leaders.
No, that’s not the reason. The reason to do it is because those ridiculous theories (including the government’s) are false. Whether pointing this out will have any effect on society, I doubt very much. The record is like 10-0 or worse just in the last century.
But they don’t love the people who did 9/11 - our rulers/owners. Rather, they love the mask that our rulers wear: the politicians, bureaucrats, political parties, military, and so on. Trying to show the iron fist under the velvet glove will only work for those who have already begun - in at least some small degree - to doubt the noble motives of the hand of the State.
Clayton -
At the time it happened, I was politically apathetic. I don’t quite remember when or why I started to question, but now that the facade of a caring government has been broken for me, I never take a position until I have objectively viewed the available information. People who first questioned were probably distrusting of the government already, and looked into the whole situation further, not accepting the official story.
They probably got this way because someone placed a little nugget of doubt in their mind sometime in their life. Then, they proceeded to investigate further, to their own accord. To claim we don’t need leaders is silly. We don’t need coercive rulers, but human nature defines leaders and followers in certain aspects of life. To grow as humans, wouldn’t it behoove us to learn from those who are better at certain things than ourselves? This includes being able to see past certain things. It doesn’t matter if the gap in ability is due to willful ignorance or not.
I agree, but if I change one person’s mind, I feel better of it. You can’t hit a home run without taking the chance of striking out. And chances are, you will strike out; many more times than you’ll hit a home run. And even if you just get a hit, they can steal bases or have other hits move them along until they finally score.
You’re right, but they don’t realize they love the mask. They see politicians as people who represent us with our well-being first on their value scale. Your last sentence is what I think is my goal in getting people to do. I don’t see how our positions are antithetical. Quite the contrary. It seems you view it as futile, but someone was successful with me. So I know it can be done.
@Maynard: I’m not trying to discourage you from trying to change people’s minds. And it’s not futile, either. But if you mean to change society I think you’re in for a major disappointment.
My point is that the truth is its own reward. It is not valuable only insofar as it can change people’s minds. I don’t give a damn if nobody ever changes their mind on 9/11 - I know it’s a big pile of steaming bullshit and that’s enough for me. It’s just one of those things I keep in mind every Apr. 15th.
Let me say it another way. While I agree people choose leaders for themselves and naturally self-organize into groups, you and I have no idea what sort of leaders people actually need and to suggest that “opening people’s eyes to 9/11” is the kind of leadership they need is unfounded. Maybe people just need leaders that help them with day-to-day stuff like family and business and leave the titanic, cosmic, geopolitical stuff out of their minds completely.
Perhaps what we need instead of people protesting and denouncing the government (which, in a weird sort of perverted logic usually ends up reinforcing the government’s power all th more) is people simply ignoring the government, laughing at the government and shrugging off the government’s attempts at intimidation. The whole system is built on fanaticism. “Are you for it or agin’ it?” Well, on almost everything, the answer “it depends.” But Leviathan thrives off internecine battle; it can even thrive off the anarchy-versus-statism dispute. I’m of the opinion that a long, bored collective yawn directed toward the would-be masters Masters Of The Universe in DC may be far more effective than the loud cries of “Down with the system!”
And the more you learn about exactly what they did on 9/11, how can you not laugh at their ridiculous story? Sure, some innocent people died (though probably not even anywhere near 3,000) and that makes it a horrific crime. The long-run consequences are sobering, as well. But the strongest society is the society that laughs in the face of oppression and adversity. The Jewish culture has always been noted for its aura of good cheer in the face of the strongest oppression and adversity amidst centuries of European bigotry and anti-semitism. The Zionism that has arisen since the mid-19th century is uncharacteristic of Jewish culture and resembles more the fanaticism of Europeans. I think we (Anglo-Americans, Europeans, the “developed” world generally) can learn a great deal from the history of oppressed peoples that have shed the wiles of their oppressors like water off a duck’s back - the Jews in Europe, many of the Native American tribes, the Somalis, the Afghans, and so on.
Government is boring, absurd, laughable, ridiculous and, of course, morally bankrupt. This is the model anarchist:
Clayton -
So I suppose the Taliban changed its tune and invited the USG after bin Laden suddenly “changed his mind” and took responsibility in December?
OBL was supposed to have been an integral part of the whole setup (he was the heel, the Emmanuel Goldstein in the farcical War on of Terrorism). However, he decided to double-cross the Americans and issued his Sep. 16th statement denying responsibility. His statement pretty much states the unvarnished truth. He was, no doubt, quickly finished off after this defection. Bin Laden was the very first 9/11 conspiracy theorist.
Clayton -
It is just as much of an unbelievable conspiracy theory to say that angry Musilm cave dwellers under everything that was required and succeeded at all. If people say that the military and CIA, with all of the money and resources they have, couldn’t pull it off with the level of success that happened, but less than two dozen semi-literate drug abusing ARAB IMMIGRANTS could manage it, the burden of proof is on them. Frankly, getting 1 of the 4 planes to hit on target would be pretty crazy for those hijackers, but 3 of 4…c’mon people. There is no wreckage of Flight 93 because it was shot down for F-xx fighters.
I’m with you on the Afghans (Not britian, not Russia 2x, not the US) and the Somalis (to a degree; they hate us a lot over there and they celebrate 9/11 as a holiday), but the Native American tribes were wiped out systematically with little to no chance of recovery from the start. What is left of them is a disgrace to their former selves (this is the vision for the Palestinians as well; overrun with prostitution & pornagraphy, alcohol, gambling, and dependancy) and the Jews in Europe were destroyed (killed) or assimilated to the structure. More or less, Jewish elites have become part of the Anglo American sphere. The further into western europe you go the more accepted Jews are in the elite circles. My guess would be Germany, the whole of Eastern Europe, and Russia probably still distrust their organization, but to compare them as if they are equal to the Native Americans and the Afghanis when “resisting oppressors” is a misnomer. Only in the bible are Jews as resilient and successful as the Afghanis and Somalis. This is not meant only as their support for Israel either.
Because Thomas Jefferson saw Native Americans as equal in talents and perception the early Americans saw fit to fine print contracts to get “good deals” on the land the Indians were on. In reality, the Native Americans never stood a chance and didn’t know what hit them. Contracts aside; weapons and tactics, biological warfare, General Sherman knew to cultivate disease in the buffalo to thin their ranks (more than likely hoof and mouth),
Boring; that is why it is so spoken of.
absurd; why so many put so much into their faith in it.
laughable; why it justifies the use of ultimate force.
ridiculous; so much “official authority” is required in its operations.
morally bankrupt; why we allow it to be managed.
Yes. Although he probably didn’t double cross the US. The US double crossed him; as we did with (as bin Laden uses as an example of) General Noriega.