Afghanistan, Iraq and Israel

Economics Political Theory
21

First of all, Israel put itself into the quagmire by treating the Arab majority (unfortunately, in this statist world only majorities rights count) within its borders (even pre-1948) like sh*t. If even a sheep-like people like Arabs where forced to counterattack like they did (not the neighbors, the individual terrorists) I’m sure that the Israeli treatment must have been horrendous. Denying any sort of guilt by Israel would be clearly propagandistic, I’m afraid. How come that up until 1947 jews and arabs managed to live peacefully while after 1947 things went crazy? (I’m not saying that creating Israel was a mistake; the way Israel behaved was the mistake).

Now, I agree that as of today, Arabs will not recognize Israel’s “right to exist” (whatever that might mean) and will happily blow themselves up (and will need to be put down individually). But people do not live of ideology. They need jobs, and if faced with the choice to, say, provide for their families or bombing Israel I’m sure that many would chose to “swallow the shame” and let Israel live.

They do not do that because Israel has no economic value to them: there is no free trade, I’m sure that capital flows are next to zero, not to speak of emigration. Israel need to change all that, and if it does, rest assure that slowly, arabs will swallow Israel’s existence and be forced, by their need to live past subsistence, to cooperate. But as things stand, Israel is valueless to them.

As for eastern Jerusalem, it is mostly Arab and that’s all I need to know. Giving it back to the Arabs would go a long way to establishing the real will of Israel to reach peace. No one(besides fundamentalists and todlers) gives a damn where did Jesus stake a crap two millennia ago : as things stand, eastern Jerusalem is arab, and need to be reverted back to the arabs. The smaller the states (half a city, in this case) the less interventionist and warfare-minded they are: of course, that would not mean there would be no violence at all.

Purely form an Israeli perspective, any other policy besides an end to Gaza strip incursions, capital flow and trade liberalization and partition of Jerusalem, would be suicidal. It’s almost like Israelis are dead set on making their country as unviable as possible.

22

Non sequitur fallacy: “if X attacks Y, then, ‘obviously’ Y must have done something horrible to X.”

For instance, people in the United States supported the Soviet Union. ‘If workers kill capitalists, its just because capitalists must have oppressed the workers’.

Learn history. The underlying conflict, as most conflict where security was debatable, was economic.

  1. Jews bought unproductive land cheap and it became valuable when they imported know-how and capital to increase its productivity.

  2. Some native landowners thought: Jews are not Muslims, all previous contracts with them can be revoked at any time.

  3. However, a Jewish government, if it were to exist, meant that Jews could protect contracts made in the past.

  4. Result: attack → now or never → now [i.e. 1948].

5.1 Honor/shame created further conflict.

5.2 Additional friction being created by the Marxists in Israel, who provide their opponents with ready-made propaganda.

Did you read the links in my former post? Landes is a very serious scholar in this field and he provides a very cogent summary.

23

It’s amazing just what a quandary of problems that relatively tiny strip of land causes. I used to spend a lot of time studying and researching the area, but I’ve lost interest now. I do agree with thelion on what he has posted so far. In any case, here are my 2 cents…

There were plenty of clashes and revolts prior to the hostilities of 47/48. Most of them occurred post-WWI when the British had control of Transjordan and began carving it up as they saw fit. You have to remember that prior to this the entire area was pretty homogenous and people could wander from place to place. With the introduction of national boundaries disputes began to arise between different ethnic and clan groups. Since the Jews had developed and reinvigorated the economy of the East Bank there was a flurry of Arab immigration to the area. Many conflicts during this period were also more about clan rivalries or the Mufti of Jerusalem trying to consolidate power over the Palestinians. (It’s in this time that the “myth” about the al-Aqsa mosque being a pivotal shrine in Islamic history were born.)

During WWII there was a massive increase in Jewish immigration, both legal and illegal (for obvious reasons) and these population shifts eventually led to more uprisings as the Arabs in that area figured they should get exclusive autonomy from the British. Fast forward to the end of the war and you have all the problems with partition. By this point there are established Arab nation-states with British-trained and equipped armies ready to ride into pre-Israel on a whim to seize the wealthy territory. The conflict was never really about “Palestinian” nationhood (they rejected even incredibly generous partition plans). Egypt and Jordan both occupied Gaza and the West Bank after 1948 with no resistance from the local Arabs. Palestinian nationalism was born in the late 1960’s after their so-called “friends” fenced them into refugee camps and failed to destroy Israel for a second time.

The great bulk of the refugees and their descendants are not in the territories. They are stuck in neighbouring Arab countries that have kept them fenced in and living off subsistence for decades. The Arabs in the territories did benefit economically from Israel through free trade for many years. Prior to the Second Intifada the West Bank economy was absolutely booming. This was the time when the greatest chance for a peace settlement arose, but the PA leadership rejected it outright with no counter-offer. Shortly thereafter the troubles began and thus destroyed the West Bank economy. But I agree, Israel’s paranoid militarism is certainly a problem in this area today.

The last thing the Arabs in Jerusalem want is for the PA to be their government. They’re quite content living in the grey-zone of receiving Israeli entitlements whilst appearing “anti-Israel”. In any case, the PA wants -all- of Jerusalem along with the Holy places. This is a one-sided sticking point.

Gaza is a big problem. I remember everyone hailing the unilateral withdrawal as a great sign of peace. Unfortunately it quickly became a nifty front for the terrorists. Just recently a foreign worker was killed by a Qassam rocket shot out of Gaza. I don’t know how Israel can tolerate incessant rockets and mortars out of the place without launching incursions. I know you talked about capital and trade, but every time they open the crossings and let trucks through the terries quickly launch attacks. They’re happy profiting off the commissions they charge for Egyptian smuggling tunnels. It’s a bad situation, but the bulk of responsibility is with Hamas in Gaza on that one.

24

I find the Middle Eastern situation rather peculiar, mainly because of the Jewish sentiment in the United States. I personally have no affection towards Israel, but it seems to be policy and in our and Israel’s “best interest” to defend Israel on whatever they do, and make everyone else an enemy. Looking at Israel’s amazing treatment of Palestinians, just makes me want to support them.

I can’t think of any legitimate reason for the United States government to support Israel in any war, and possibly go to war with Iran. I find no reason to be occupying any Middle Eastern country. Saying that if we pull out their country it will fall into ruins is making an exaggerated statement. Are the Middle Eastern countries we occupy filled with incompetent drones drooling from the mouth?

I can also find no reason for their to be intervention in the Middle East in my own benefit. Can someone state why I should want to support war on my behalf in the Middle East?

25

Jimmy Carter turned the whole place into an area of American “strategic influence”… Right. So that Americans can fight and die for Saudi Arabia?

26

As long as we are fighting for something (whatever cause that may be at the expense of many lives lost), I guess it’s O K.

27

A very interesting thread all and all. It would seem to me that, after all, one can hardly pretend to provide anyone in the region with ready-made answers without having first-hand knowledge of the situation. All I can say is that, form what I know, my reaction if I have had any voice in Israel’s decisions, would have probably been much more different.

Fro example, I wouldn’t give sh*t about Arabs not wanting self-government in eastern Jerusalem (if that is true, which I doubt): I’d just pull out and declare a military exclusion zone in there (as in the first tank to move in gets a nuke). Even if violence would not decrease as a result, at the very least that would paint the arabs, and for once not the Israelis, as the loonies in the region.

And I would go on and proceed to eliminate all license requirements to hold weapons (and I mean any kind of weapon) or form protection agencies (and extend a moratorium on all taxes to be paid form weapons sellers and security agencies). Citizens can defend much better than state police forces can.

Finally I would go on and privatize as much as I could, and leave it to contracted security agencies to protect most areas. I believe that, with such measures, Israel’s security would improve much. But of course, it’s easy to talk form thousands of miles away.

28

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[Note: All countries mentioned in the Coming Attractions have been accused by the U.S. government of terrorist connections or are currently designated by Freedom House as “Not free.” Most of these governments engage in torture or other human-rights abuses. And you aren’t pro-torture, are you?]

Regards, onebornfree.

29

While pulling out has possible downsides, staying there has no upside. Unless you are a member of either a) the military-industrial complex or b) al Qaeda, of course.

30

If pulling out has possible downsides then staying must necessarily have an upside if only in helping to prevent the downsides. Either way, I struggle with trying to apply a utilitarian cost v benefit scale to this even though I tend to be fond of them.

31

Staying there and pulling out can have a downside in common.

32

True. Either way, it doesn’t matter, we’re not leaving anytime soon. My support or non support wouldn’t alter that.

33

Thanks for the suggestion, the book looks interesting. I’m putting it on my reading list now.

34

Don’t believe everything you hear on the news.

35

I agree.

I actually believe almost nothing I hear, or see on the news these days [e.g. see my 9/11 sig. line below[:)] ]

As far as I’m concerned , it’s practically ALL government propaganda, no less , no more.

O.K., so Operation Kosovo ended/ cured nothing. A good point, but whats new?

This merely reinforces Harry’s main point [that government “solutions” never work- at least in the way they are advertised to[:O]], as far as I can see.

[Harry, wherever you are , you are sorely missed.]

Regards, onebornfree

36

It ended the ethnic cleaning of Albanians and didn’t institute ethnic cleansing of serbs. That doesn’t mean that it was a just war: it was financed though taxation and civilians died. But saying that it just made the problem worse would be plain wrong, I’m afraid.

37

Not that it matters, but I would respectfully disagree - meaning I agree with Harry Browne .

To paraphrase Harry : “as always, and in every instance, government intervention makes the situation worse for most, not better, or even the same”.

Regards, onebornfree.

38

Myth.

39

The USA is such a stupid empire it doesn’t understand how its own power works.

40

Try to be very careful when dispelling as myths massacres which, I can assure you, have been very real. You have no idea even what the word means.