Animal rights (is back) - a new type of reasoning?

I was impressed by this argument which seems to start off from a different type of basis than the discussions I’ve read so far. Let’s see how it holds up in this forum.

Bold+italic addition “of animal rights” is mine.

This doesn’t address everything (Which rights do animals get? I don’t think this means they have all the same rights that humans do.) but I’m curious where this train of thought leads to and what it really means. Does it imply we should all be vegans? Does it mean only that pain and suffering should be prevented? Other?

Not that the following is a well-formed idea, nor do I necessarily abide by it, but I’m just going to throw this out there:

Is that necessarily a problem? People only have the rights that are afforded to them by power. How does someone with an IQ of 20 represent themselves and defend themselves in court? How do they fit in or contribute to society? I think the truth is, anyone who isn’t owned by him/herself is owned by someone else. (or by no one at all)

Only beings that can consciously understand and agree to contracts have the rights of people.

“Ownership” could be said to be the idea that someone has a range of control over something. People who have conscious control over themselves own themselves. Those who do not have the mental faculties to control themselves do not own themselves. Typically, they are cared for by other people, and can be considered to be “owned” by other people. I suppose this would make it morally acceptable to own someone that is mentally/physically handicapped to the point where they cannot control themselves, but not own someone who is mentally/physically able. (as in slavery)

I think something like the above can be extended to animals. They don’t get contracts, and from what we can tell, they don’t reason. They have no conception of rights, so why should they have rights by anyone, other than by their owner?

This argument also makes babies and children not people, but property. :confused:

I’m still largely undecided on this whole issue, except that I like eating meat and I like being nice to handicapped people and babies.

“The first lecture, I want to talk about the nature of man. Comparing men with animals and illuminating the major differences, and characterizing what one can call the human condition, the condition that mankind finds itself confronted with.”

“So with this, let me begin talk about the nature of man and the human condition. And speak in particular about three elements that are unique, so to speak, to mankind. One is language, the second one is property, and the third one is production or technology.”

"Now, you realize then, when we begin all of this here, we are already talking. We are already using some of our capabilities, some of our skills and achievements, that are the result of human evolution. That is, the reconstruction that I will offer you of human history, makes already use of some of the tools that have only gradually evolved in the course of time. Actually, the origin of language is dated back roughly 200,000-250,000 years ago. All of these estimates are of course as you can imagine rather vague estimates. Nobody was around at that time and recorded exactly when they started talking. But these are the numbers that some geneticists and biologists and anthropologists give us for the beginning.

And you notice something else from the fact that we begin all this enterprise from talking to each other, that somehow humans are social animals. We are aware of the fact that there exists people who are interested in game theory, for instance, who seem to have problems sometimes explaining why do people cooperate at all and do not fight each other all the time. But the funny thing is, that this debate takes already place using language. Which in a way, from the outset explains that there must be something wrong with this idea that man was at some point deciding whether they should fight each other or whether they should not fight each other. Obviously, as soon as mankind began to talk with each other, they must have already recognized that there are certain advantages to doing this, and to be social in one’s endeavor. And it is perfectly clear of course from the outset, what the great advantage of having a language available and communicating with other people is: we can convey knowledge to other people than would be possible if we simply had to just look what other people are doing and try to reconstruct so to speak the ideas that were behind what they were doing. Through language, we have the possibility of communicating directly what it was that led us to do this or led us to do something else.

Now, with language, two ideas so to speak emerge. I use here the ideas that were developed first by some Austrian psychologists, Carl Bruehler, who also had some influence on Karl Popper who uses some of his ideas. And Carl Bruehler makes the point that we can distinguish, when we look at language so to speak between four difference functions. Two of which we find already on the animal level, and two of which are unique to humans.

On the animal level we find use of symbols or sounds that express something. Like pain, for instance. That is an express function of language we can ascribe easily to animals and say in this sense they can express some internal feelings. They can do this.

On the other hand language has sometimes a signal function. That is we can produce sounds that indicate there is some danger coming, or warn people, warn other animals to run away. Both of these of course is also possible for humans to do. Language has an expressive function for us, and also has this signal function, to make other people aware of these.

What is not found in the animal kingdom is that language has a descriptive function. That is, language describes “this is such-and-such”. And with a descriptive function of language, for the first time the idea of truth emerges. That is, for expressions and signals, whether it is true or not is not really an issue. But when we say “this is such-and-such”, then it becomes possible to say “is that really the case?” So the idea of truth comes into being because language has a descriptive function.

And the most primitive descriptive propositions would be of the type “this is such-and-such”. That is, having a proper name or an identifying expression, and then a general term characterizing a particular object as having general characteristics.

And the second unique human function of language is the argumentative function. That we have complex statements, connected by ‘and’ and ‘or’, several statements combined to each other, that we in Language has an expressive function for us, and also has this signal function, to make other people aware of these."

"And you realize that it is precisely this last function, this argumentative function, that we must also use as a tool if we now want to make a more precise distinction between the abilities of man on the one hand and the different abilities of animals. And I want to follow here a philosopher Brand Blanshard, who has pointed out some important differences between animals and humans.

And I want to begin with a little quote from Blanshard, in a book called Reason and Analysis, where he says this about animals, and then draws a conclusion that this is somehow still very different from what mankind can do. He says: What does it mean to have human reason or human rationality? And he answers: it cannot be consiousness. Of course because no one can sensibly doubt that animals feel fear and hunger and pleasure and pain. Animals can also make mistakes, which we recognize as when for instance a dog drops a bone for a more inviting bone that he sees in the water. And since only judgements can be mistaken, animals must be also in some way able to make judgements. That is, come to the conclusion that I made a wrong judgement. And since judgement is thought, we can also say that animals think. But they do obviously not think in the same way that humans do.

Now, what is the difference between our way of thinking and their way of thinking? Now let me emphasize four points in this connection, which partly overlap.

The first thing to be noted is that animal thought is always tied to perception. Whereas human thought can wander around, go back to eternity, wander to the future, can think about objects that are far away, can even think about objects that have never existed. Animals cannot think in this way. Whatever their thinking is it requires so to speak some present cue, some observation from which their thinking arises. We can imagine for instance that animals can also think to a certain extent about things that are absent. As if a dog sits in front of a house because the house knows that his master has gone into the house, and waits there patiently until the master comes back out. But even there you can see that it is tied to perception. If he had not seen his master go in there, he would not do what he does sitting there waiting, and in any case he cannot think of things far away, or impossible, or things in the far distant future. So that is the first thing: animal thought is tied to perception, and human thought is in this way freed up of perception.

[To Q:] Yeah.

[Q: Is it possible that my dog is not waiting for me when I come back?]

Yes, we would make distinctions of course also between more intelligent animals and less intelligent animals, right? So the cockroach that you might have brought with you while you were just going into the house, might well not be waiting. So here I am talking, so to speak, about the most developed of animals.

[Q: But how do you know this? Because they do not report back?]

What?

[Q: Because there’s a language barrier, how do we know that they’re not thinking about the stars or infinity. They don’t report to us.]

That brings me exactly to the second point (laughter). You say, that’s one other fundamental difference between humans and animals, that they cannot do this. So even if you think that they might think about this sort of stuff, they have no way of conveying this sort of information to us.

Or, you can say: animals can’t abstract, in the way that humans can abstract. Certainly animals can see shapes, and colors, and they can perceive smells, and things like this. But it doesn’t seem to be the case that they have a concept of shapes, or triangles or whatever, or a concept of green or blue or yellow. Or a concept of different types of smells. Again this is an aspect of what I just mentioned. It is just tied to specific events, but they cannot abstract from the specific event and build a general concept.

If they could, then we would expect them to, yeah, to form a word for these things. And it is not that animals are not capable of producing sounds. Many animals do have the equipment to produce sounds. So this does not explain why they don’t have words. Obviously, despite the fact that they can form sounds, they cannot form what we refer to as words. Sounds to which we attach a certain abstract idea for which we find various instances in the real world.

The third thing that distinguishes mankind from animals are: that animals cannot make inferences explicitly. Again this has something intimately to do with the two points that I already made. Animals can of course make inferences, but these inferences are implicit. That is to say if you have a chicken and you give some food to the chicken that is too big, doesn’t fit into its mouth or so, and it is desperate that it can’t eat it, and then you throw another one of roughly the same size in front of it, then the chicken might refuse to even try to do the same with the second piece of material, because it recognizes that it didn’t work with the first it’s not going to likely work with the second. But again due to the lack of concepts, they cannot make explicit inferences. That is, infer from one concept to another, and thereby be able to say: why such-and-such caused such-and-such a problem, and why it would be in vain to try the same thing twice, that did not already work in the first case.

And the most important difference between animals and humans is the difference that animals do not have what we call self-consciousness. They do have consciousness but not self-consciousness, and what I mean by self-consciousness is: they cannot stand back, so to speak, and reflect about their own behavior. They cannot pause and criticize their own behavior, think about why their behavior was successful or unsuccessful. They do not have anything like norms or principles, against which they can judge their own behavior and criticise their own behavior."

"Let me on this point again quote Blanshard, on this most important of differences, that is the human ability of self-conscious reflection. There he says: finally human reason has added an extra dimension to the animal consciousness in the form of self-consciousness. An animal lacks the power which is the source in ourselves of so much achievement and so much rue, of standing off from itself and contemplating what it is doing. It eats, sleeps, and cavorts, but never pauses in the midst of a meal to take note that it is eating greedily. Never asks if it is not unseemly to sleep the hours away, (laughter) you see in some respects of course humans have not developed that far beyond animals (laughter). Apparently never reflects, as it leaps and runs, that it is a little off-form today. It makes mistakes, but having made one, it cannot sit down and consider what principle of right thinking is violated. Because it cannot contemplate its own behavior, it cannot criticise itself. Being below the level of self-criticism, it has no norms. And having no norms, it lacks one great obvious essential to the light of reason: that is, the power to be guided by principle.

And Blanshard then summarizes all of what I tried to convey up to this point by saying the following: when we say that man is a rational animal, then we seem to imply that he can command ideas independently of sense. Independently of perception. That he can abstract, that he can infer explicitly, and that he can sit in judgement of himself. The highest of animals can do none of these things. The stupidest of man, if not a pathological case, can to the light of reason: that is, the power to be guided by principle."

Or you can listen to the audio: Nature of Man and the Human Condition: Language, Property, and Production (Hoppe)

The line is correcly drawn at sapience, not sentience. Cats and dogs are sentient, true, but not sapient. They can think, in a limited way, but cannot think about thinking. They assert no rights. They would be incapable of even comprehending the concept. Thus, they have no rights.

A classic article on the subject: http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle1996/le960302.html

SPOILER ALERT: I love to eat animals.

That being said, I think the arguments for animal rights is legitimate.

Simply because someone must rely on someone else to enforce their rights does not mean they don’t have rights. Moreover, simply because someone cannot hold a job or defend themselves in court does not mean they are beyond human consideration for ethical treatment.

If you disagree, bring on the infanticide!!!

Or stab a retarded person in front of his family. See if they believe you have the entitlement to stab their son or daughter.

The right of contract is different from the right to self-ownership, as well as the right to be spared unnecessary pain. Animals surely shouldn’t have the same rights as people, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have other rights.

An ownership claim still must retain boundaries with other claims by others, of which some are implicit. A caretaker does not have full property ownership over another human. Full ownership rights imply that the owner can legitimately destroy the property. Obviously, a caretaker would not be considered a legitimate caretaker if he were to murder the disabled or force them to perform sex acts.

Simply because the victim has no ability to communicate that he believes his legal rights are being violated does not mean that he has none. It simply means that others must enforce them on his behalf. Obviously, this makes their enforcement more difficult and complicated. For enforcement to be 100% effective almost guarantees that other rights must be disregarded. So we take what we can get. The same things applies to abusive parents.

He said a retarded person could be owned, so he does not believe he would have entitlement to stab their child anymore than he would have entitlement to wreck their car.

So what is your threshold for whether or not an animal’s rights have been violated? And by what right does someone derive the right to prosecute on behalf of an animal?

Anyone should be allowed to bring a case against anyone, so long as a court is willing to hear it.

I think most people could identify what actions would and what wouldn’t cause an animal pain or suffering, and I think most people would desire animals be protected against most pain and suffering, given reasonable exceptions. Things like farming, branding, slaughtering, and medical experimentation may be tolerable, given the social functions they serve, but prize fighting, recreational torture and mutilation, and negligence may not be.

Really it depends upon social sentiment - humans must determine the rights of animals, both because we are practically much more capable of harming or protecting animals than they are capable of protecting themselves, and because we have a steep tradition in using animals as a means to serve our ends.

I think the above activities are generally-agreed upon as ethically permissible and impermissible. I don’t think we need to spell out the exact ethical content or legal solution in advance for such cases.

Arg why do these threads always go so fast? [:S] No time to read this all tonight!

Anyway I think I just thought of a clearer way to say what I’m thinking. Those here who say animals are property and have no rights are basically proposing two distinct “categories”:

  • Human Rights - exclusive club, contract-ability required, human nature only
  • No Human Rights - animals, trees, inanimate objects, anything non-human (would also include children and those with cognitive disabilities in some ways, such as the inability to engage in contracts)

Correct?

I’m trying to suggest that perhaps it makes more sense to think of three distinct categories:

  • Human Rights - Considering the nature of man and the human condition, etc, unique to humans
  • Sentient Rights - Animals who have morally significant interests because we regard pain and suffering as morally relevant
  • Non-sentient (or we can’t confirm sentience?) - physical property, trees, plants, etc.

Sentient rights would be a subset of human rights which does not include concepts such as the NAP (no contracts, only humans can do this), but does include certain core rights. What those core rights would be, I’ve yet to think about. [^o)]

A voice of reason appears!

So you think it should be legal for me take someone to court on your behalf, without your consent?

And most people think we need government education. How is what most people think relevant?

Using what threshold? How are you deciding what is right and what is wrong to do to an animal? And who will enforce these “rights” in a voluntary society? And again, what right does anyone have to take someone to court over a supposed violation of his or her pet’s rights?

How do you propose “humans” decide what rights animals have? Majority rule? How is that possible in a voluntary society?

My own subjective valuations say that humans are different and more special than all living creatures and we’re entitled to special treatment because we’re humans. Why does an infant have more rights than a dog in my mind? Because the infant is human. I’m human. All of us discussing this are humans and if another living thing has to die for a human to live, so be it.

Really? So if some alien race showed up that was not human, but was just as intelligent as humans, they would not have rights because they are not humans? I think you need to think this through more.

That is a strawman Spidey. He left unsaid why humans have rights and animals don’t. He was comparing infants to animals. You still refuse to acknowledge that infants (and invalids) are potential moral agents (“adults”).

Really? When did I ever refuse to acknowledge that?

How is asking questions a strawman? I was asking him to clarify exactly why humans have rights.

We are talking about two different paradigms at the same time. Let’s diffuse them, so we’re clear.

In an anarcho-libertarian world, anyone should be able to take anyone to court for any reason, so long as the court decides the case is worth hearing. I don’t think a court would hear a case where the victim did not consent → this would cast doubt on whether or not there actually is a victim or an aggressive, immoral act. Nevertheless, I don’t think victim’s consent is necessary or even feasible in many cases. Think about murder. The victim clearly can’t consent to bring the case to court.

In our statist world, things work differently. We don’t need to bring a court case before anyone. We simply contact the police that someone is breaking the law. The victim’s consent is considered in charging the aggressor, but it is not necessary.

But we’re not talking about non-consenting victims - we’re talking about victims that cannot effectively communicate whether they desire legal restitution and protection. In most cases it is plain to see that the victims did not consent to the aggressions committed against them. Animals certainly attempt to avoid pain. This is the basis of any animal cruelty case. No one expects a beaten dog to take their master to court - perhaps he even consents to do so but cannot effectively communicate such.

It isn’t - that wasn’t the point. The point is that a wide variety of people can clearly and consistently determine some acts as ethical and others as unethical without the need to explain themselves through universal, objective rules. Sure, this tells us nothing about the “gray areas”. It does tell us that there is some common thought process that leads to similar conclusions.

Right and wrong will differ from individual from individual. Vegans get no benefit from slaughtering animals, and they may consider the process unethical. I like meat, so I consider it ethical when performed in a manner that prioritizes the minimization of the animal’s suffering. Others may desire to watch animals squirm in pain.

Maybe economic interests can outweigh moral principles. If the above three mindsets decided they would fight to protect their interests, you’d likely see my group win. On consistency and principle, the vegans win - they do not think animals should be subject to any intentional suffering via human hands. Or the abusers win - they believe animals are their property to be used for their amusement with no other considerations. My position is the least principled, but likely the most desirable. People desire meat but they don’t desire intentionally inflicting pain on animals, and they are willing to expend enough resources to see both of these ends met to a reasonable degree.

And in a voluntary society, the right to take someone to court is simply an extension of the right to property - I am simply using my property to hire a market service. The court itself is bound by no law either. It can overrule prior case law or adhere to it. It can create new principles or rely on old ones. Whether its ruling betters society or worsens it will be determined in time, and future rulings will take into account those consequences.

These are broad questions about what rights are, whether they are universal, and whether they come from law or from nature. Is a voluntary society one in which there are no criminals, no successful criminals, or no sanctioned aggression? If aggression is sanctioned, who has the authority to do so?

My point is that the “voluntary society” is not a product of law but will. Most people in this society must will universal property rights and their enforcement. Of course, some people won’t believe in such, and others will curb their legal desires for personal gain as the situation arrives. The only means by which the “voluntary society” survives is by ensuring that such actions are rarely successful. Most people will expend resources to prevent such, directly (voluntarily funding the police) or indirectly (voluntarily funding an insurer, who subsequently hires police). In other words, the “voluntary society” is a society of majority rule. Only, it derives its power from the employment of resources, not voting systems.

If the majority sanctions some forms of aggression, you will have some forms of aggression.

Here’s the bottom line.

A retarded son is not a family’s play thing. Using him as a pin cushion or sex toy is almost definitely immoral to everyone, especially where we can see he explicitly expresses displeasure. We surely see no immorality in evidencing such actions or reporting them to authorities, nor is it immoral for authorities to forcefully intervene, removing this person from the abusive family’s care and punishing them. Why should it be different for animals?

The largest difference in my eyes is that animals have traditionally been used as a means to serve human ends. We eat their meat and “steal” their labor. To some extent, such means can be substituted. As technology furthers, such will be more and more so. For example, cloning technology may allow us to grow meat, rather than raise animals, and in the process create meat more efficiently. Animal labor is largely unnecessary already.

It seems most people desire the middle ground. Animals should not be given full human rights and are still employable as means for our ends, like property; however, they retain some rights for ethical treatment, in which they are spared unnecessary pain and not employed towards certain ends that society considers immoral and illegitimate.

Countless threads where you claim that parents own children as if they are a dog or rock, and thus have the right to rape and murder their children?

Strawman… lmao…

Actually, what you did was introduce the subject of aliens and all but make an argument for him that was unrelated. I don’t expect better from you and probably won’t respond to whatever nonsense you concoct next.

True. So by what right does someone bring a case to court on behalf of the dead person? I am not saying there is not one, I just want to understand your reasoning.

But not for civil cases. So by what right does someone have a right to bring a case against someone else, for a civil dispute for a dead person?

And this is relevant how? Isn’t killing an animal generally much worse than torturing it for a little bit? And doesn’t an animal suffer pain upon death usually? Again, I have no idea what your threshold is for determining whether or not an animal’s supposed rights have been violated.

The reason murder is wrong is because murder implies lack of consent. In other words, it is not just a majority of the world’s population that thinks it is wrong, it is every single person, by definition. Consent implies ability to reason. Animals cannot reason, as such, they cannot be murdered, just like one cannot murder a plant. For something to be truth, it must be universal, not just a majority opinion.

As I just explained, this is incorrect. Right and wrong are universal. Every single person in the world would agree that being killed without giving consent first is wrong. Every single person in the world would say that being forced to have sex without giving consent is wrong. Every single person would agree that stealing property is wrong. They are all wrong by definition.

They win? Really? So what do vegans propose to settle property disputes between animals and other animals and between humans and animals? How do they propose to settle disputes between meat eaters and plant eaters? No, they do not win, they fail. People who understand that animals do not have rights are the only ones that are consistent and “win” on consistency and principle.

Which means that I do not recognize the fact that children are potential moral agents how?

Oh yeah, and while you are bringing up your nonsense, I think it so funny how you live in a fantasy land that you think in a voluntary society, people can have their children taken from them legally before they have even gone to court.

Does this mean that you do now recognize this fact of human nature? What I meant to say was that you don’t recognize that this means that children have a certain amount of basic, negative rights… Could this not be more clear?

A child, given certain basic needs are met and unforeseen accidents averted, will reach adulthood within roughly 1/5th of their lifetime.

A non-human animal, given the same, exhibits the potentiality of moral agency, as far as we know, only in the possibility that over many generations their species will become sentient.

We’ve been over the moral and economic aspects of this issue before too. In short, a parent qua guardian can only “own” a child insomuch as it aids the child in reaching a state of moral agency. An abused child is then basically seen as unowned, and the legitimate guardian may then represent the child’s interests in bringing a case against the aggressor.

None of your “arguments” about this have ever gone anywhere, so I don’t feel the need to repeat myself, especially here in yet another thread about animal rights. If someone else is confused, feel free to ask.