Capital reading series, Commodity Fetishism.

It may be best to begin from the general concept of a commodity. In the first place, commodities exchange for other things upon a market. For example, one may sell a door for a certain price, and then buy two windows with this price, in which case one has effectively exchanged one door for two windows, or, what is the same, given up one door to gain two windows. As the market is not a charity, giving up the door is not incidental, nor an act of gifting, but rather a necessary prerequisite if one is to obtain the window upon the market. As such, the door, other than simply being a physical object which is useful by merit of its physical properties, also gains a use as an exchangeable object. This is not, of course, a natural or material property; it need not be elaborated why it is not a natural property of an object that humans exchange it in a certain proportion with others.

Here, the door’s use in exchange was expressed in terms of another commodity, windows. However, the door will also exchange with all other commodities in some proportion. For example, one door may also exchange with three cars, which may exchange with one pencil (it is, you see, a very good pencil); in that case, two windows would also exchange with three cars and one pencil, three cars with two windows, and so on. The result of this is that one pencil, three cars and one door will all exchange for two windows, and as such if one wants two windows, it does not matter which of these one has, because they are equal upon the market. While as physical bodies they may be widely different, as commodities they are essentially equal.

In that case, the way that things appear is essentially that one goes to the market, one sells one’s commodities according to their properties in exchange, and then one buys commodities according to the same. In selling one’s commodities, of course, one must sell them for something, and hence one must bring one’s commodity into relation with another. This is carried out according to the commodity’s inherent properties as a commodity, rather than as a physical object as such. Now, a physical object gains its utility as such from its physical body. However, as ‘commodity-bodies’, one door and three cars in the above example are essentially equal. The commodity as commodity appears as essentially a non-physical body of a certain quantitative magnitude, equal qualitatively with all other commodities (and hence interchangeable with them all in a specific quantity).

One could also look at the matter in this manner: when an object transforms into another object, it does so according to its own properties. If one drops an egg, this will have a different effect to that of dropping an atomic bomb. On the market, the door is transformed for the seller into two windows. It does this too according to its properties, but it is clear that this cannot be a result of its physical properties, but rather it takes on the quality of having objective properties as a commodity rather than simply a physical thing. These properties, however, consist entirely of its ability to relate to other commodities upon the market in certain proportions. As such, the seller must bring the commodity to the market, and then must bring it into relation with other commodities in accordance with its own properties as a commodity, hence serving simply to facilitate the relation.

This is the essence of commodity fetishism, by which essentially commodities come to have lives of their own, and come into relations with each other as commodities. Once one puts commodities on the market, one is then subject to the laws of the marketplace, and to the relations of the commodities between themselves. Only through this may one realize one’s commodity as a commodity. One may hold a commodity as a physical object at one point, but as soon as one puts it upon the market, it comes into relation with other commodities essentially by its own accord and in accordance with its own properties and laws. The object is transmogrified into a commodity-body, which is no longer a specific physical object, but rather simply a relation to other commodities.

Now, let us look at the form taken by production in this wider context. In the first place, let us return to our example, where one door, three cars and one pencil are all equally capable of exchanging for two windows. The result of this is that, insofar as one is producing simply for exchange, one may produce any of these to the same effect. The same applies, of course, to all other commodities on the market as well. Insofar as the products of labour are commodities, they are qualitatively equal on the market; that is, they feature as simply exchangeable goods for the seller, and in this they are undistinguished. All commodities are exchangeable goods, and only quantitatively different in this matter. The result of this is that labour carried out towards the aim of producing commodities for exchange is itself indifferent to the various specific physical objects which are produced by it, and hence to the physical form of labour itself (after all, what you get depends upon what you do. Production of cars requires different actions to the production of pencils). Insofar as the product is a commodity, it does not matter what form it takes, merely what it will bring on the market; the physical commodity is merely an inessential body which houses the commodity as its soul. As such, the same applies to labour insofar as it is production for exchange. Now, if one produces for one’s own consumption, then one must indeed be very precise about what one produces; if one wants two windows, one must produce two windows, and hence perform the actions necessary to produce two windows. Conversely, if one wishes to buy two windows upon the market, then one may produce cars, doors, beds, umbrellas, shoddy romance novels and so on.

The result of this is that we have abstract labour. All forms of labour, that is, are made qualitatively equal, as production of market wealth, or exchangeable goods. Their products are made qualitatively equal, and so are they also. A product of abstract labour is a value (this is a definition). One may view this from another angle: a producer, in producing commodities, does not perform labour simply to give it away gratis (nor does a capitalist pay wages in such a manner). The market, as we said, is not a charity. Rather, they labour for private gain (not necessarily their own). Conversely, they do not produce any physical object for themselves, but rather for the consumption of others. So then how are they to make their labour worthwhile for themselves (or the capitalist make the wages so)? Well, it must be private labour, labour carried out for private gain of the labourer or owner of their labour-power. Labour would not be private if one did not retain the product, but rather simply surrendered it to society. The result of this is precisely that their product cannot appear as simply a physical body, which they do in fact surrender to society; rather, it appears as a commodity-body, as a non-physical entity which is retained and realized by the producer or capitalist. The producer or capitalist do not abandon the product at all upon the market, but rather in fact redeem it, and hence realize their labour as private labour rather than forfeiting it as charitable social labour. Their labour, thus, insofar as it is private labour, does not produce as its product a specific physical object, but rather a non-physical commodity body.

The result of this is that the sale of the commodity comes to represent the realization of the producer’s own labour, and hence the product as a physical body becomes essentially simply a means by which this labour becomes such for the labourer. It is, as a physical body, unimportant; its function is rather to redeem the labour expended, and hence to be replaced with another commodity. It is simply a means by which the labour gains a purpose for the private producer, and in this a commodity. In itself, it is worthless to the producer or capitalist, or at the least forfeited, so that the labour expended on it as a use-value is not presented as private labour, but rather its labour must seek elsewhere for this character. As a result of this, it becomes essentially a vessel of labour, by which the producer’s labour (or hired labour) is deposited upon the market in some form or other (it does not matter, so long as it is labour as such, abstract labour), and as such conveyed into the territory where it may be actually realized through exchange. If it had not been produced, the producer or capitalist could not actually purchase anything with nonexistent commodities (market, charity, etc.); conversely, only through production for the market may this production be realized, and hence the commodity as a physical object serves only as a necessary means for the labour’s realization. This character of a vessel of labour is how value here appears, and a commodity as a commodity is a vessel of labour.

An object has a ‘natural’ physical form, namely its own physical body. This is natural insofar as it is transhistorical, and does not depend upon any form of society. However, value is not realized through this, as if the object were to be consumed by itself rather than sold, it would not be a commodity as such. On the other hand, value, if it is to be realized, must take on a physical form, else it is simply an empty conjecture and has no real, material existence. This is what we may call a commodity’s value-form. Now, as a value, it finds substance only through being converted into the physical body, the ‘natural form’ of another commodity. As such, its physical value-form is that of another commodity, for which it exchanges; this is what Marx calls its ‘exchange-value’. This is the basis of Marx’s discussion of the various forms of value in his explanation of money, which I think should be fairly clear.

In any case, once all of this has been seen, we may now finally examine the relevance of the laws of the market to which the seller bravely exposes his wares. Now, we have seen that abstract labour, while qualitatively equal in principle, may differ quantitatively. This is the basis of the law of supply and demand. In the first place, we may as well briefly examine the category of demand. On the market, demand is effective demand, that is, one must have something to exchange if one wishes to exchange for something. This is not the same as psychological demand, and indeed on the market most starving people have no demand for food. Effective demand is not any sort of psychological ‘wanting’, but is expressed in terms of commodities. One’s supply is, then, one’s demand to some extent (this does not hold absolutely due to the separation of sale and purchase which Marx notes in the chapter on money, as well as the chapter on crises in ‘Theories of Surplus-Value’); that is, one’s commodity expresses not only one’s supply to others, but also one’s demand for oneself. This is the same thing as saying that one does not produce for the market simply to give stuff to others, but also as private labour, and hence as an expression of demand for other people’s stuff.

Now, a product has a value, but it also has a concrete price, for which it is sold. This is determined, of course, by market forces; putting in a certain amount of labour needn’t mean that you get the same amount back. That would imply that the commodity producer had complete control over the price of their commodities, whereas, as we have seen, the commodities inhabit a world of their own, uninhibited by any such arbitrary stipulations. As Engels comments, “continual deviations of the prices of commodities from their values are the necessary condition in and through which the value of the commodities as such can come into existence.” (that is, only insofar as these are possible can values exist) Of course, if one product is exchanged for another product which represents less labour (has a smaller quantitative magnitude of value), then that other product is exchanged for one with more labour, and hence the discrepancies necessarily cancel each other out on the total social scale, so that total price, expressed in labour-time, is equal to total value expressed in labour-time; every product, in order to act as a value, must also be sold, and hence bought by somebody, therefore serving for the buyer not as a value but as the price earned for their own commodity’s sale, which conversely featured as a value for them and so on.

Now, the price-commodity, the commodity for which the commodity is exchanged away, is itself a value of a specific magnitude. As such, the commodity is itself ‘valued’ in terms of this commodity, which may have a value greater or lesser than its own. What this means is simply that more or less labour was expended upon buying it than making it, or, what is the same, that the effective demand in labour terms is greater or lesser than the supply in labour terms. However, undervaluation implies overvaluation elsewhere, which can only mean that more labour was performed in order to purchase the product than upon the product itself. As producers perform only abstract labour, they will therefore tend to migrate to production of overvalued commodities, where the same amount of labour-time (or labourers hired) will grant them a greater price. This tendency would only rest if prices were equal to values, and hence there were no overvaluation, and hence no supply-demand discrepancies. This is the context in which it is said that price equals value when supply and demand are equal.

In actual fact, however, we must take into account not only living labour (represented by variable capital, wages), but also dead labour (spent labour already incarnated in a product; labour carried out in producing means of production, in this context), as if prices were equal to values here, a capitalist who hired more dead labour and less living labour would have to gain less profit than one who hired less dead and more living labour (given equal wages for both capitalists, so that an equal amount of labour-time will be necessary in both cases to reproduce these wages for each labourer, and the rest spent on profit), even if their products represented an equal amount of the total labour of society (as, after all, the production of means of production of car-production in fact forms a part of the production process of the car). The result is, ultimately, that the former would tend towards increasing profits, and the latter towards lower profits than according to prices = values (although they would still do so on a social level, of course.) Whether or not prices do equal values is irrelevant to the theory of value; they may or they may not. The theory of value is not an empirical description of price-levels, it is a description of what price is.

However, that aside, we end up with the result that, “Only through the undervaluation or overvaluation of products is it forcibly brought home to the individual commodity producers what society requires or does not require and in what amounts.” This in fact explains the nature of the market forces which appear as essentially independent and sovereign to commodity sellers. The operation of supply and demand upon price is simply an expression of the amount of the total social labour expended upon the product in question. In other words, in the market, the seemingly accidental and chaotic fluctuations in price are simply the means by which producers interact with each other. Capitalist production is not performed according to conscious social planning, but rather by private individuals, which, as we saw, was the basis of value. These private individuals may come into relation to each other only through their commodities coming into relation, and their commodities themselves serve as products of abstract labour. As such, the activity of the rest of society is materialized for the individual commodity seller as simply alterations in the relations of commodities.

In that case, the fact that commodities come to follow autonomous laws, which the sellers must simply respect and follow, is merely a result of the fact that the rest of society becomes something autonomous from them, and they may interact only through the mediation of commodity relations, so that likewise the activity and needs of the rest of society are only expressed thus. Marx points out that in every society, if it is to survive at all, labour must be not only performed, but divided between various forms in specific ways (if one spends all of one’s time creating swords, then one may end up starving). In capitalist society, this takes the form of autonomous laws impinging upon the private producers; as production is private, so society may only be asserted in the form of a law imposed upon this private production, and these laws may only take place through the mediation between society and the private producer, social labour and private labour, namely the commodities themselves qua values. The fact that the product of the producers comes to be autonomous of them, and form relations independent of them, simply expresses the fact that society is alien to them (not in the sense that such statements are used by various annoying blokes whining and moralising about the internet, how people are engaging in too little social interaction, and such. We are not moralising here, and one may engage in as much social interaction as one wants while still being alienated), as are their relations to society. This is simply the early formulation of Marx, namely that alienation of man from his product necessarily involves the alienation of man from man.

I wonder about something. Could one not argue this whole thing by replacing “labour” with almost anything else? For example, could we not say that production requires a place to produce. You don’t produce something in the Phantom Zone, you produce it on a physical area on the face of the Earth. So we could take an arbitrary feature of that area, say the number of gamma rays it is exposed to, and say that the soul of commodities are the gamma rays to which the place they were produced on are exposed. The market is not exchanging labour for labour, but gamma rays for gamma rays. The number of gamma rays it exposed to is its value, by definition.

Sounds ridiculous? Yes, it does. But the point is that Marx has taken one feature that partially determines [to some wildly varying extent] the price [or value] of an object, decided it is the only thing that counts, and constructed an elaborate fantasy around that. That the price [or value] is dependent soley on labour is not proven by this wild abstraction; it is assumed. To show this is so, I am pointing out that you can replace “labour” in his thesis here with anything else at all [I chose gamma rays], and everything will follow for “gamma rays” just the same as it does for “labour”. We’ll wind up with “abstract gamma rays” being “the soul” of a commodity, just like we did with “labour”.

The whole reason why we say labour is the substance of value is because, EVERY human society has to distribute human labour somehow. That mechanism under capitalism is Value. This was explained in the OP actually

can we stop feeding the troll.

He will only reply to your posts and not to any legitimate econmic discourse (ie. if you pull up references from other economists other than Marx) Look at the last posts of the chapter 1 thread. He has no refutation cause he is spending too much time flaming the forums

He is only twisting logic through semantics and rhetoric because it is that douche from MRN trying to flame our forums…

So if I labored two hours smashing a Ferrari into smithereens with a sledgehammer, then such Ferrari becomes a vessel of my labour and its value would thusly increase by two labor-hours in the commodities market?

  • So if I labored two hours smashing a Ferrari into smithereens with a sledgehammer, then such Ferrari becomes a vessel of my labour and its value would thusly increase by two labor-hours in the commodities market?

No no you see that labor didn’t produce anything USEFUL, therefore it doesn’t count. Wait, wait you mean it’s the usefulness of labor that gives it value? That sounds like labor gets it’s value from utility. I MUST TELL THE WORLD!

Precisely, the point of value is to distribute human labour aomgst society. If nobody has a demand for a given type of labour, then it does not count as human labour, to quote Marx.

It’s usefulness that allows a product to have value.

If appearence matched essence, there would be no need for science.

So it is labor that “gives” something value, but it is usefulness that “allows” that process of value injection to occur? Labor must ask usefulness if it can inject value upon a product? So dramatic! Do tell more.

You seem to misunderstand the purpose of value. Value is a mechanism used to distribute human labour amongst society. If there is no need to distribute a specific type of human labour amongst society, then it is incompatible with the value mechanism.

So where does an honest Ferrari-smashing laborer like myself get to inquire about the “social use value” of an hour of smashing Ferraris? The 2011 Edition of the Central Committee Catalogue of Human Labor Values where one could compare the social use values for a labor-hour of smashing Ferraris, pumpkins, rocks, glass, and/or pigeons? How exactly does value “distribute” human labor amongst society? So many actors in this drama: Labor injects Value into Product, but only if Usefulness allows it. Value in turn, distributes Labor amongst Society. I’m losing the plot here.

Thank you for saving me the time of wading through that whole pile.

The market silly, if your service or product is wanted, you can find a buyer on the market.

Via the market.

“Via the market.”

So value is what makes further production possible? If i take a piece of wood and make it into a piece of plywood; i add value. And the reason for that is because, supposedly, that make further production easier or at all possible down the road?

So is it Labor or the Market that gives something value? Did you just debunk Labor Theory of Value?

The whole reason why we say labour is the substance of value is because, EVERY human society has to distribute human labour somehow. That mechanism under capitalism is Value.

  1. Here too I can say that The whole reason why we say gamma rays are the substance of value is because, EVERY human society has to distribute gamma rays somehow. That mechanism under capitalism is Value.

  2. In any case, you see now that you are merely asserting that labour is what gives value. Burden of proof is on you.

  3. Are you familiar with the works of those who claim this is nonsense? Can you summarize their arguments and then show why they are wrong?

  • However, that aside, we end up with the result that, “Only through the undervaluation or overvaluation of products is it forcibly brought home to the individual commodity producers what society requires or does not require and in what amounts.” This in fact explains the nature of the market forces which appear as essentially independent and sovereign to commodity sellers. The operation of supply and demand upon price is simply an expression of the amount of the total social labour expended upon the product in question. In other words, in the market, the seemingly accidental and chaotic fluctuations in price are simply the means by which producers interact with each other. Capitalist production is not performed according to conscious social planning, but rather by private individuals, which, as we saw, was the basis of value. These private individuals may come into relation to each other only through their commodities coming into relation, and their commodities themselves serve as products of abstract labour. As such, the activity of the rest of society is materialized for the individual commodity seller as simply alterations in the relations of commodities.

I’ve been trying to digest that whole mess of text in the OP, and it seems to me that the above paragraph is (mostly) correct. Would I be wrong in saying what he’s describing here is something like the price mechanism? The only problem lies in that bolded part, where it links prices to “total social labor” expended. This really gets to the heart of it, and why the failure of the Labor Theory of Value to accurately describe reality sinks Marx’s whole system. Things are not fundamentally exchanged at ratios linked to thier costs, or more specifically, labor costs. Things exchange based on thier percieved use-values or utilities, including deciding on how to allocate one’s labor. Does working an hour at X task help me achieve Y goal? Labor is merely one of the factors that goes into this equation. You really seem to be saying that labor=price, except only useful labor counts towards that price, and you can’t quantify how much labor was actually useful until the point of transaction. Then you go and carry on that “useful labor” into the next transaction down the line… it’s an entirely post-hoc explaination.

Also, jesus your writing style is just as convoluted as Marx’s. I mean, look at this sentence:

  • The fact that the product of the producers comes to be autonomous of them, and form relations independent of them, simply expresses the fact that society is alien to them (not in the sense that such statements are used by various annoying blokes whining and moralising about the internet, how people are engaging in too little social interaction, and such. We are not moralising here, and one may engage in as much social interaction as one wants while still being alienated), as are their relations to society.

It’s a freaking paragraph, and you have two sentences inside of parentheses inside of another sentence. WTF? No wonder people get so confused over this stuff.

“3. Are you familiar with the works of those who claim this is nonsense? Can you summarize their arguments and then show why they are wrong?”

This is what I’ve been trying to get him to adress. Specifically, Menger because it was the same time period.

Did you just copy/paste from revleft (may 6 2011)?

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2102966&postcount=46

hahahahaha

It’s a freaking paragraph, and you have two sentences inside of parentheses inside of another sentence. WTF? No wonder people get so confused over this stuff.

I suppose that they just see it as very important to tell the people on Mises.org that they dislike people who whine about the internet. It’s a little-known fact that Marx planned to end volume 3 of Capital with a chapter about the internet.

This really gets to the heart of it, and why the failure of the Labor Theory of Value to accurately describe reality sinks Marx’s whole system. Things are not fundamentally exchanged at ratios linked to thier costs, or more specifically, labor costs.

To be fair, I don’t think that they were discussing the labour theory of value there. They seemed to be saying that supply and demand are to a large extent determined by how much was produced by the rest of society to exchange for the good. I’m not sure that I agree with them, but I suppose that it’s correct to say that subjective demand must be converted into effective demand in some form, and labour would be one form of doing that. If somebody produced something, then sold it and used it to buy another commodity, then this would increase the demand for this other commodity, whose supply is also determined to a large extent by labour (including the capitalist’s mental labour.) If that’s what they’re saying, they’re not completely wrong, although I’m not sure that I understand all of the first post, so I’m not going to put forward any authoritative interpretation.

Here too I can say that The whole reason why we say gamma rays are the substance of value is because, EVERY human society has to distribute gamma rays somehow. That mechanism under capitalism is Value.

I’m not sure that you can say that, actually. I do agree that their explanation of why prices must equal values on the social level in the other thread could well be substituted for gamma rays instead of labour-time, though. If one wanted to get really creative, one could say that value is determined by large books, and the magnitude of value depends upon the amount of times a single point is gone over in a chapter.

This is the essence of commodity fetishism, by which essentially commodities come to have lives of their own, and come into relations with each other as commodities.

The explanation above was rather convoluted, but do you basically just mean that commodity prices are affected by supply and demand and the like, and are exchanged in accordance with this rather than just the whims of their seller? That wouldn’t seem very mysterious, though.

Insofar as the product is a commodity, it does not matter what form it takes, merely what it will bring on the market; the physical commodity is merely an inessential body which houses the commodity as its soul.

So basically, if I produce something to exchange it, its product is not for my consumption? That surely didn’t need as much space as it took. I don’t disagree, though, I guess.

Conversely, if one wishes to buy two windows upon the market, then one may produce cars, doors, beds, umbrellas, shoddy romance novels and so on.

One of the most important things that I learned from this text is probably how to buy two windows upon the market with umbrellas and shoddy romance novels.

All forms of labour, that is, are made qualitatively equal, as production of market wealth, or exchangeable goods.

To be brief, then, a person can perform one type of labour and receive the products of others, so it doesn’t necessarily matter which they do. Are you basically saying that because of this, labour becomes production of wealth in the abstract, as its product can be turned into a different thing, rather than just of a specific physical thing for personal use? Is this connected with exchange-value and the fact that a commodity can be represented in terms of other commodities? I’m still not sure what it has to do with value being determined by labour, though, at the most it would seem to imply that you value your own commodity despite not having a physical use for it because it is useful in exchange for something else which you want. That’s still subjective, though.

A product of abstract labour is a value (this is a definition).

Wait, I’ve never seen this before. So are you defining a ‘value’ as ‘a product of abstract labour’? I suppose that Marx does seem to define value in terms of labour in Capital, but if you’re arguing that he defined a value purely in terms of labour, then how is it supposed to conflict with the subjective theory of value, if it’s not even using the same terms in the same way? Looking at the paragraph where Marx introduces value, I’ll concede that you may be right, but probably just because I don’t understand a large part of what Marx says in this chapter.

It is, as a physical body, unimportant; its function is rather to redeem the labour expended, and hence to be replaced with another commodity. It is simply a means by which the labour gains a purpose for the private producer, and in this a commodity. In itself, it is worthless to the producer or capitalist, or at the least forfeited, so that the labour expended on it as a use-value is not presented as private labour, but rather its labour must seek elsewhere for this character. As a result of this, it becomes essentially a vessel of labour, by which the producer’s labour (or hired labour) is deposited upon the market in some form or other (it does not matter, so long as it is labour as such, abstract labour), and as such conveyed into the territory where it may be actually realized through exchange.

So private labour is when I consume the product of my labour, and social labour is where I don’t (a ‘charity’ seems to be given as an example of this?The market may not be a charity, but the charity market is certainly a market.) Since commodity production is carried out due to private self-interest, but the thing which I produce physically is not for me, I have to exchange it to get something if the labour is to be in my self-interest. Due to this, the commodity acts as a means by which my labour becomes private labour, and hence carries the labour out to the market in order to become ‘realized’ as private labour through exchange. Abstract labour basically means that the labour becomes private labour through letting me consume something other than its physical product, and hence being amorphous. Is this something like what you mean?

So is Marx’s theory of the evils of commodity production then that people act in their self-interests and thereby act in the social interest? That doesn’t really seem like much of a problem, to be honest.

This is the same thing as saying that one does not produce for the market simply to give stuff to others, but also as private labour, and hence as an expression of demand for other people’s stuff.

See, if this whole post had just talked about ‘stuff’ all the time, it would be far clearer. Still, I guess that it’s valid to say that demand is also determined by how much people produce to sell for your goods.

That would imply that the commodity producer had complete control over the price of their commodities, whereas, as we have seen, the commodities inhabit a world of their own, uninhibited by any such arbitrary stipulations.

Wait, so price doesn’t equal value because of commodity fetishism? I guess that the point here is that people can’t determine how much they get just by deciding to work for a certain length, because of market forces? Is this related to ‘socially necessary labour-time’?

As Engels comments, “continual deviations of the prices of commodities from their values are the necessary condition in and through which the value of the commodities as such can come into existence.”

So then value exists only because it can’t be determined through investigating prices. I can see why a subjectivist wouldn’t necessarily look for empirical and statistical confirmation of value theory, but wouldn’t it be the opposite for an objective value advocate?

These private individuals may come into relation to each other only through their commodities coming into relation, and their commodities themselves serve as products of abstract labour. As such, the activity of the rest of society is materialized for the individual commodity seller as simply alterations in the relations of commodities.

People communicate through supply and demand. Do you basically just mean that if people want something less, they are less likely to produce things to sell for it, in other economic democracy?

After all of that, I’m not sure that, even if I necessarily agreed with the whole text you posted, it would constitute a criticism of capitalism. All that it seems to discuss is how labour becomes organized in society, how people act in their self-interest and benefit society through doing so, and how the market is based on mutual reciprocity. These are hardly atrocities. Maybe the trump card is coming later, however, and it will turn out that Austrians are guilty for the deaths of more people than Stalin and Mao. I will not hold my breath. Still, I suppose that that post may have helped me understand what Marx was on about at some points of his book, so thanks for that.

Did you just copy/paste from revleft (may 6 2011)?

Of course they didn’t steal. What do you think they are, a communist?