Child Slavery

[Spideynw]

@Daniel Muffinburg

How do you know this to be true?

Do you think children can consent to sex at age 4?

[DanielMuffinburg]

@Stranger

@Daniel Muffinburg

@Stranger

@Daniel Muffinburg

How do you know this to be true?

@Stranger

Scientifically, the absence of something cannot be proven. The existence, on the other hand, can.

So how do you know it doesn’t happen?

@Stranger

Scientifically, the absence of something cannot be proven. The existence, on the other hand, can.

So why would you make such a statement if you do not know that it is true?

[Stranger]

@Daniel Muffinburg

So why would you make such a statement if you do not know that it is true?

I know that it is not false.

[Spideynw]

@Jonathan M. F. Catalán

In a free society it would be OK for a father to sell his daughter for sex, against her will?

Sorry Jonathan, I got yours and the other post with a 4 year old mixed together. For clarification, it would be illegal if she has reached the age of consent. If she has not reached the age of consent, then she has no will, so yes the parents could sell the child for sex.

[DanielMuffinburg]

@Stranger

@Daniel Muffinburg

So why would you make such a statement if you do not know that it is true?

I know that it is not false.

How do you know that it is not false?

[DanielMuffinburg]

@Spideynw

@Daniel Muffinburg

How do you know this to be true?

Do you think children can consent to sex at age 4?

What are the requirements for consent, as determined by you?

[E_R_Olovetto]

@Spideynw

@E. R. Olovetto

Is there an exact age?

How is this question relevant?

For example, let’s assume children have rights, as you argue. Let’s assume that sex with a child is “rape”. At what age can a child have sex and it not be considered rape? Is there an exact age?

Everyone is in agreement that there is an “age of consent”, so I don’t know what the confusion for you is.

@E. R. Olovetto

Also, it is sort of ridiculous that Stranger is claiming that no child has ever wanted to be free of his parents, ran away, and been taken in my another person. Here is a bunch of stories, and here is one that probably fits the scenario close enough.

We are talking about children that have not reached the age of consent. I would guess 14 years old is old enough to have reached the age of consent. We are talking about a 4 year old running away, so no, Stranger is not wrong.

You mentioned an “age of consent”. I think it is reasonable to ask if you want to proclaim an exact age for a child to be able to do such and such thing, as is common in many states today. It is just a simple question.

At this point I am not going to answer your question. I am not doing the thinking for you and I asked you first =)

Also, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Age_of_Consent.png

and http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/research/Findings/beyondrefuge_wda48262.html

**

Each year, 100,000 young people under the age of 16 run away overnight in Britain. A quarter of these are under 11 years old. Repeated running is especially destructive, and for the young people involved it can lead to an increased risk of abuse and exploitation, and involvement in criminal activity, prostitution or substance misuse.

**

I am sure that we can find cases of quite young children running away. You are both really avoiding the question.

[Stranger]

@Daniel Muffinburg

How do you know that it is not false?

Because you have not shown it to be.

And now I hope that you will stop wasting our time with critical thinking 101 questions.

[Spideynw]

@Daniel Muffinburg

What are the requirements for consent, as determined by you?

I am no expert on child psychology. I would imagine that is more of a question for lawyers, child psychologists, and doctors. I just know, like everyone else, there is an age of consent. The U.S. government currently sets that age for most things pretty much at age 18. I think at 16 one can do something to not have to wait until 18 (Miley Cyrus did it) I myself would guess it is far younger than that. I also think it depends on the person, not that there is one certain age for everyone.

[Spideynw]

@E. R. Olovetto

You mentioned an “age of consent”. I think it is reasonable to ask if you want to proclaim an exact age for a child to be able to do such and such thing, as is common in many states today. It is just a simple question.

I think it would depend on the child, the parents, doctors, psychologists, and lawyers. So no, I am not claiming there is a universal age. I do however think it would be far younger than 18 or 16. Probably sometime after age 6 but before 12, I would guess. However, I am no expert. I am just saying that there is an age of consent and that before this age, humans are not able to reason sufficiently to make decisions or survive on their own.

[DanielMuffinburg]

@Stranger

@Daniel Muffinburg

How do you know that it is not false?

Because you have not shown it to be.

[angry rant because stranger “lost” the other “debate”]

So if something is not shown to be false, then you know it is not false?

[Catalan]

@E. R. Olovetto

You mentioned an “age of consent”. I think it is reasonable to ask if you want to proclaim an exact age for a child to be able to do such and such thing, as is common in many states today. It is just a simple question.

Although Stranger is not being clear at all, Spidey is actually giving straightforward responses. Based on his posts, I think it is fair to say that there is no objective age at which a child will become an adult. The transformation occurs when the child gains the ability to reason and act willfully.

Whether this makes their position agreeable, I don’t know. I don’t really focus on libertarian ethics, beyond those which are obviously and strictly economic in nature.

[DanielMuffinburg]

@Spideynw

@Daniel Muffinburg

What are the requirements for consent, as determined by you?

I am no expert on child psychology. I would imagine that is more of a question for lawyers, child psychologists, and doctors. I just know, like everyone else, there is an age of consent. The U.S. government currently sets that age for most things pretty much at age 18. I think at 16 one can do something to not have to wait until 18 (Miley Cyrus did it) I myself would guess it is far younger than that. I also think it depends on the person, not that there is one certain age for everyone.

How does that entire paragraph follow from my question?

Let’s try this again:

You: Do you think children can consent to sex at age 4?

Me: What are the requirements for consent, as determined by you?

I’m asking you what you determine to be consensual sex. That way, I will be able to determine if a child can consent to sex at age 4.

[E_R_Olovetto]

@Jonathan M. F. Catalán

@E. R. Olovetto

You mentioned an “age of consent”. I think it is reasonable to ask if you want to proclaim an exact age for a child to be able to do such and such thing, as is common in many states today. It is just a simple question.

Although Stranger is not being clear at all, Spidey is actually giving straightforward responses. Based on his posts, I think it is fair to say that there is no objective age at which a child will become an adult. The transformation occurs when the child gains the ability to reason and act willfully.

Whether this makes their position agreeable, I don’t know. I don’t really focus on libertarian ethics, beyond those which are obviously and strictly economic in nature.

I agree that we can’t objectively determine an age. I think that we can do better than guess at age ranges though. In fact, we must do so.

What I really wanted an answer to still is if, in their opinion, the child must simply state that they want to be free or escape their parents. I guess it doesn’t matter if they answer really though.

[Spideynw]

@Daniel Muffinburg

I’m asking you what you determine to be consensual sex.

Consent implies the ability to reason. As such, the two people would have to be old enough to reason, and then decide to have sex.

[Spideynw]

@E. R. Olovetto

What I really wanted an answer to still is if, in their opinion, the child must simply state that they want to be free or escape their parents.

The child must have reached the age of consent and then to indicate that she wants to leave (running away would be indication).

[DanielMuffinburg]

@Spideynw

@Daniel Muffinburg

I’m asking you what you determine to be consensual sex.

Consent implies the ability to reason. As such, the two people would have to be old enough to reason, and then decide to have sex.

Why does age matter? Does age determine someone’s ability to reason? Why can’t a four-year-old reason?

[E_R_Olovetto]

@Spideynw

@E. R. Olovetto

What I really wanted an answer to still is if, in their opinion, the child must simply state that they want to be free or escape their parents.

The child must have reached the age of consent and then to indicate that she wants to leave (running away would be indication).

OK, a partial answer is progress. Couldn’t there be other ways to indicate that a child wants to be manumitted than (starting to be?) walking/running away? Is it enough for them to say, “Stop!” or “I want to leave!”? It shouldn’t be so hard to get your guys to flesh out your theories a little bit.

I don’t think that simply “being able to protest/consent” is a sufficient metric for determining who has rights. This will bring us to the cases of the invalid or sleeping/passed out drunk man.

“Reaching the age of consent” is still too arbitrary too. Who determines the age of consent? You both purport to be anarchists, so I assume you mean common law tradition as it pertains to certain actions. This means that various justice providers would codify law, but we need to know along what lines. The issue of sex is more complicated. I would prefer we just stick with “escaping parents’ slavery” for now.

[Stranger]

@E. R. Olovetto

OK, a partial answer is progress. Couldn’t there be other ways to indicate that a child wants to be manumitted than (starting to be?) walking/running away? Is it enough for them to say, “Stop!” or “I want to leave!”? It shouldn’t be so hard to get your guys to flesh out your theories a little bit.

Children say that 1000 times a day.

[E_R_Olovetto]

@Stranger

@E. R. Olovetto

OK, a partial answer is progress. Couldn’t there be other ways to indicate that a child wants to be manumitted than (starting to be?) walking/running away? Is it enough for them to say, “Stop!” or “I want to leave!”? It shouldn’t be so hard to get your guys to flesh out your theories a little bit.

Children say that 1000 times a day.

OK, so answer the questions. I would like to move on. Does the child need to both protest (verbally or by trying to escape) and reach a “safe haven” (a willing guardian) (perhaps by calling a child abuse hotline and being rescued)?