Could anarchy work in human society?

I dunno - maybe I’m just in a mood.

Bringing a recalcitrant thief or assailant to justice will almost certainly require coercion. I’ll agree, it’s justified, needful coercion - but unless they come along voluntarily, it’s coercive.

Coercion, while best avoided, is sometimes needful. It’d be lovely if life were not so, but it is.

Danno - off to coerce his daughter into waking up. She’ll agree it’s by right, and in her own best interest - but she’d really rather nap longer. Once she’s fully awake, she’ll likely change her mind - but I’ll be coercive in getting her that awake.

“Forced” to fall back upon? By whom? Why do they have to agree upon something? If they disagree, why can’t they just go their separate ways and compete with eachother?

They’re forced by the state. Under your scenario, if both parties disagree over which legal system to use and “compete with each other”, what exactly does that mean? Think about it. How are rights not violated in that scenario? If the default law is based upon natural law, no one’s rights are being violated by forcing both parties to obey. If both parties agree to use a different legal system, that’s totally ok.

Then this isn’t market anarchism, as market anarchism would presuppose or require the total lack of a state to begin with. You’re advocating a state, a coercive territorial monopolist that claims the power to be the ultimate arbiter in disputes - that coercively outlaws competition for its own function.

I’m now beginning to understand why we clash so much a bit better. You’re still in the “voluntary state” phase represented by the likes of Rand that clings to the alleged need for a territorial monopolist premise.

How are rights not violated in that scenario? Because neither of the parties are forced into the other’s system, that’s how. They may simply freely associate or disassociate. Free competition doesn’t violate anyone’s rights.

Unfortunately, the monopolistic model you propose would violate natural law in and of itself in a meta sense. All parties involved would be forced into association with a singular institution which they have no option but to patronize.

This would be no different than a state.

The Wright Brothers are asking the wrong question…

It should be has man ever been able to fly?

We aren’t talking about clothing stores; we’re talking about rights. While it’s completely up to you to decide which clothing store to patronize, it’s not up to you to decide what system of rights to patronize.

What you don’t seem to be understanding is that, in a meta-ethical sense, it would violate rights to force people to associate with or join a given arbitrator or legal system. Either free association is valid or it is not. It can’t be valid in most cases and then suddenly be invalid when it comes to choosing which type of economic system or general form of organization to participate in. It is indeed entirely up to me as a sovereign individual to decide which community or organization to join or associate with, and if I don’t happen to like your particular community or organization I can secede from it. That’s what anarchism is all about.

I’m mystified that you even call yourself so much as an anarcho-capitalist when you don’t seem to understand what’s wrong with a coercive territorial monopoly on arbitration and law.

If you check my examples, you’ll find I’ve taken that into account. All of the contracts I describe are property transfers, not promises. They’re all 100% valid in the strict Rothbardian sense. Then note the weasel word “barely” above. Almost every aspect of the state can be recreated voluntarily. Some undoubtedly cannot, but surprisingly few.

–Len

What if you don’t agree that murder is wrong. Does that give you a right to murder?

If that’s the case, what gives you the right to force everyone to obey the legal principle of natural law?

I call myself anarcho-capitalist because it’s the closest word that exists to describe my position, even though I don’t agree with most other anarcho-capitalists. I do not advocate a coercive state, but I do acknowledge that no matter what, in legal disputes, one party will be forced into something.

If you think about it, you’re making a similar mistake to the mistake leftist anarchists make about property.

You emphasize with as if state “protection” is clearly superior to any alternatives. It’s not. It isn’t even protection: the supreme court has ruled that the state has no fiduciary duty to protect. For example, if you call 911, and die waiting for the police, your heirs cannot sue them for failure to protect you. Even if you know days in advance, and inform them of the threat, and they flatly refuse to protect you. Their job is to protect the state, not you; in the course of doing so, they sometimes investigate crimes after the fact, but that’s not protection. Protection is focused on keeping one alive.

But every way you look at it, monopolists provide worse service at higher prices. Government monopoly on “law enforcement” means worse enforcement at higher costs–and more particularly, it means that there’s nobody to protect you from “law enforcement.” Forget free-market protection: imagine the difference if your town had two police departments! If the boys in gray and the boys in blue had equal arrest powers, including the power to arrest each other, and taxpayers could designate which agency got their tax money… for starters, those cops tasing people and ending up on youtube would start ending up in jail instead.

Not only isn’t that how it happened, but you’ll discover that regulation is always demanded by the ones regulated! I haven’t found a counterexample yet. Medical licensure was demanded by doctors, supposedly to ensure quality, but really to stifle competition by limiting the number of doctors. Utilities demanded regulation to stop “ruinous competition,” as I described earlier. The established players in any market always like regulation, because (1) the cost to them is less than the barrier it poses to entering competitors, and (2) the regulatory agency will be staffed by their own people. Regulators and regulated trade places constantly through a revolving door.

Um, what was that again?

–Len

You’re misusing the word “coercive.” Initiated force and defensive force are apples and oranges. There’s a bright glowing line between the two. One is unconditionally and always wrong, and the other is unconditionally and always moral. Using defensive force against a murderer is in no way coercion. “Coercively defending” is an oxymoron.

There’s only one libertarian law, and it’s non-aggression. It doesn’t require any of the debate or picking and choosing that you’re talking about. All it requires is that people be intelligent enough to distinguish aggression from non-aggression, and that they not be taught to confuse the two. The average three-year-old has the concept pretty straight. It’s only later in life that brainwashing about taxation not being theft, etc., destroys their more-or-less innate sense of what’s right.

In particular, someone who thinks it’s aggression to smoke, or look at him funny, or disagree with him, or court the same girl, lacks sufficient intelligence to qualify as fully human. He still gets human rights, as a courtesy to his DNA, until he aggresses–or reacts forcibly to non-aggression–at which time, the victim will hopefully defend himself, and thereby do both himself and the gene pool a service.

–Len

Thankyou for helping to clarify that Len. I think Ego’s argument can’t be made without grossly warping the meaning of coercion by misplacing the burden of proof on the victim rather than the initiator of aggression. It would be absurd to argue that I’m “coercing” a murderer or thief by defending myself against them or seeking restitution. They are the initiator in the scenario, not me.

Len, why do you think I disagree with you?

I was only pointing up an important point of terminology. There was confusion earlier when you described a “voluntary government,” though I knew what you were getting at, because it’s an oxymoron. Later you mentioned “monopolies” supported by force, which is redundant if you realize that to an Austrian, that’s the only kind of monopoly there is. Then I saw “coercively restrict.. murder,” and decided to mention it. That’s all.

–Len

From a working paper of mine:

For Locke, the origin and purpose of government, and its only justification, is the protection of the individual’s rights to life, liberty, and property. If the state is to have any justification in light of a Lockean or Aristotelian liberalism, it will at least have to meet this criterion. A careful examination of the nature of the state, however, reveals that it cannot. Recall that the state is an organization that claims a territorial monopoly on the legal use of force and ultimate decision-making. Consider, also, that states generally acquire their revenue by physical coercion (taxation). Now, taxation is theft and therefore a violation of property rights. While it is conceivable that in principle a state could acquire its revenue purely from voluntary contributions, it would be a misnomer to call this taxation.40 If tax ‘contributions’ were truly voluntary, there would be no need to back up their collection with the threat or use of force. As a self-proclaimed territorial monopolist, even the most minimal libertarian state, should it seek to enforce its claim, must necessarily violate the rights of any of its rights-respecting subjects who prefer an alternative. When the state attempts to prohibit competitors in the voluntary production, purchase and sale of defense and legal services, it violates the rights of all the parties involved. Even if we put all this aside, no state known to history has been so constituted as to provide a reasonable assurance that the exercise of its power will not be arbitrary, that the laws it passes will be just, that it will not seek continually and increasingly to expand the size and scope of its activities beyond the protection of rights.

It would be correct to point out that none of the foregoing precludes the possibility of a state actually acquiring the explicit and unanimous consent of its subjects. It is, after all, conceivable that a state could, at least in principle, manage to do so. A few points can be made in reply. First, while this may in principle be possible, in actual practice such an occurrence is exceedingly unlikely and like to be of only transitory duration. Second, this in-principle-possibility is no justification of a state that does not have explicit and unanimous consent in reality. Third, as I mentioned above, although consent is necessary, it is not enough to justify the state, to make the state just. A state that has the explicit and unanimous consent of its subjects but violates the rights of other persons who are not its subjects is still unjust, as are its agents and supporters.

More to the point, a contract with the state is no more valid than, and is essentially the same as, a slavery contract.41,42 This is essentially because the state claims a territorial monopoly on the legal use of force and ultimate decision-making. In both cases (of state contracts and slavery contracts), to paraphrase Spooner, an individual delegates, or gives to another, a right of arbitrary dominion over himself, and this no one can do, for the right to liberty is inalienable. If the subject/slave later changes his mind, exit from the agreement would be barred to him by the terms of the contract; a state contract with the right of secession (down to the individual level), or a slavery contract with the right of exit, would be a contradiction in terms. Moreover, even if the contract stipulates what the state/master can or cannot do to the subject/slave, aside from those stipulations the state/master has been delegated or given arbitrary dominion over the subject/slave. If anything, the state contract is the worse of the two because states generally have greater power and perceived legitimacy than individual persons and private organizations. To whom does the subject turn when the state begins exceeding the limits of the contract?

For an explanation of why the right to liberty is inalienable, and why one cannot therefore delegate or give to another a right of arbitrary dominion over himself, two points can be made, the first suggestive and the second decisive.43 First, since we all have an obligation to live a life of eudaimonia, which requires self-directed action, person A cannot morally abdicate his responsibility by delegating or giving to person B a right of arbitrary dominion over himself. While this claim does not by itself establish the right to liberty or its inalienability, it does point out the moral impropriety on the part of the would-be subject/slave to enter into a state or slavery contract. Second, recall that for Aristotelian liberalism rights derive primarily from the moral agent’s obligation not to initiate aggression against other rational beings. Rights do not simply reside in the moral patient and thereby produce obligations for others. Person A’s right not to be aggressed against by person B cannot simply be abdicated by an act of will to B, for B’s obligation not to aggress against A depends on B’s calling as a human being, something which is not in the control of A. The right to liberty is therefore inalienable. It follows from this that both state contracts and slavery contracts are illegitimate because they are fraudulent on the part of the would-be subject/slave and more generally unjust on the part of the wouldbe state/master, for the former is attempting to transfer something that is not his to transfer and the latter is attempting to receive and exercise a power to which he has no right. The state, therefore, can never be just, even in the extremely unlikely event it should somehow garner the explicit and unanimous consent of its subjects.44,45 That the state is inherently unjust is a conceptual truth, whether any given organization in society counts as a state is a separate empirical matter that must be left up to analysis of history and the present. I dare say, however, that every one of the national governments currently existing is a state.

40 One possible means of voluntary revenue for the state that has been suggested is a lottery. However, one wonders how any state would effectively enforce its claim to a territorial monopoly with voluntary contributions as its only source of revenue. Hence, one sees in history the inherent tendency of states to impose and increase taxation on their subjects.

41 Henceforth, for lack of a better term, I will use “state contract” to refer to such explicit contracts with the state (in contradistinction with the implicit consent-based social ‘contract’.)

42 Locke’s contention that the people have a right to revolution because the relationship between a people and their state is contractual notwithstanding; that this ought to be the case is true. Moreover, a truly voluntary government will recognize an unlimited right of secession (making revolution unnecessary). But it is the argument of this and the previous section that Locke’s normative claim about states does not reflect reality – states do not behave as if their relationships with their people are contractual, and no such contract has ever been signed by all of the people in any case. Furthermore, it is not enough for the rights to secession and revolution to reside only in the people as a whole.

43 The argument that follows is heavily indebted to Roderick Long’s (1994/95) “Slavery Contracts and Inalienable Rights: A Formulation.”

44 This is not to say that everything a state may do or require of us is unjust.

45 If the foregoing has raised the worry that the Aristotelian liberal account of rights undermines the making of contracts in general, it is beyond the scope of this essay to allay those concerns but I happily refer the reader to Long (1994/95) wherein this worry has already deftly been dealt with. It also bears pointing out that a similar critique of the state can be made on purely Lockean grounds, although Locke’s conception of the inalienability of the right to liberty hinges upon God’s ownership of us rather than on a supply-side justice argument.

I really enjoyed that one when you linked it to me about a year ago. Great arguments.

Thanks! :slight_smile:

Brainpolice, under your system, what would happen if two people couldn’t agree upon a legal system?

Good stuff.

Great idea, thanks!

Excellent stuff!

That’s true if, for example, the contract is structured so as to be binding on one’s children. But it need not be the case. In almost all aspects (I haven’t been able to spot a clear counterexample yet) the contract can be structured to be valid. Usually it involves recognizing that the authority of the hypothetical “voluntary government” proceeds not from terms binding individuals, but from the fact of owning the land. The “government” must either own all land within the territory, or own specific titles and easements to all land within the territory.

The “hereditary” nature of government obligation is covered by the fact that children inherit only partial title to property. The government still owns the property, so the heirs are still bound.

Regulating “immigration” is nothing more than defending property against trespass.

Imprisonment as punishment for “lawbreaking” is a bit more dicey. Can a property owner restrain a trespasser? Under what conditions and for how long? Using Block’s “Murder Park” as a model, I believe it’s legitimate to make a contract stipulating that I can restrain, or even kill you, as long as I manage to catch you on my property. I have doubts and reservations about this, however, because it does border on a slavery contract.

But a “government” that doesn’t misuse involuntary restraint as a punishment can be constructed entirely without slavery contracts. The exact definition of “misuse” is unclear to me though.

–Len