Could anarchy work in human society?

Thanks!

About the rest of your post, I suppose you’re right but I think there are libertarian arguments to be made against such centralized voluntary (at least at the start!) governments, namely that it’s a bad idea to form them because they will probably morph into states and then eventually into Leviathan over the course of generations. And I’m not sure that my argument about the illegitimacy of granting or delegating any person or organization the right of arbitrary dominion over yourself doesn’t apply to them as well. It doesn’t necessarily rule out restrictive covenant communities, but what you describe and what Ego describes is still structured too much like a state - its too centralized and monopolistic, too all-encompassing - and I think it might count as granting or delegating the right of arbitrary dominion.

Geoffrey, what happens when two people can’t agree upon a legal system? One of them will be forced into something no matter what.

Geoffrey, what happens when two people can’t agree upon a legal system? One of them will be forced into something no matter what, or the crime won’t be punished. Think about it.

If your system requires my willing consent, it would. It would work, however, if such a stance made me an outlaw - someone from whom the law cannot protect you, but who can also claim no protection under the law.

A functional anarchist society would have to deal with such a situation in some fashion - expecting everyone to be agreeable, or even rational, is simply unrealistic.

Danno

I’m confused by your objections. Isn’t that exactly how an anarchist society would deal with it? Sure, you may find a law provider who would be willing to protect you (a murderer), but then that just makes them outlaws in everyone else’s eyes, along with you. That’s not good for business - unless they’re a monopoly. And, all together now, class, what do we call a law-provider with a monopoly?

Nothing at all. I do have the right to prevent you from acting against my natural rights, or the natural rights of anyone I care to defend against you. I don’t have the right to force you to believe something, or to act a certain way. I do have the right to force the natural consequences of certain classes of action upon you.

Not “no matter what”. It is certainly possible, but in most cases, the party on the short end of the decision will decide that they value the benefits of acceding to the decision higher than the benefits of defying it. Given the fact that a just decision against someone - say a demand for restitution - is not an imposition, but a recognition that the property in question is in fact no longer theirs, they literally have nothing to lose by going along with it.

It is possible that a decision will be unjust, so that a practical decision to not defy it amounts to a coerced decision. Propose a system in which that possibility is definitively obviated, and I’ll subscribe to your newsletter.

Sorry - I didn’t mean to be oblique.

I’m not an anarchist - I believe that a very limited government is essential. However, that’s not graven in stone - I came here to hear the anarchist argument, so I could judge it for myself with better information than I’d gotten from disaffected youngsters sipping $8 lattes. What I’m hearing does, indeed, have more merit - but it still appears to be unworkable.

The “what do you do when someone refuses to agree to a legal system” question was under discussion, and it seemed to have stalled. I suggested one method of dealing with such a situation (the ‘outlaw’ label), which has been implemented in the past. It’d certainly be one way for an anarchist society to deal with the situation - there may be other, better ways - I’d be interested in hearing about them.

I like the desire behind the philosophy - “maximum individual freedom” sings close to my heart. On the other hand, Marx wanted freedom from class distinction, and we all know how well that worked out.

I’ve got no actual objections - just tough questions. I’m not here to oppose, though I will test the answers I’m hearing.

Does that clarify my stance and purpose here?

Danno

A bit, but I’m still not sure what your concrete questions are. Maybe I can approach it from a more general angle. You wonder how an anarchist society would concretely deal with certain situations. That’s a bit unfair, because one of the principle things about an anarchist society is that there is no one predetermined way to deal with anything. People will figure out the best ways based on self-interest, trial and error, and market forces. It’s not necessary, or even desirable, to punish wrongdoers, it is only necessary to protect one’s self from them, including extracting restitution if necessary, and, only secondarily, deprive them of the means to do more wrong.

Lets look at a very high-level abstract view of the dynamics in an anarchist system to illustrate the non-centralized, non-punitive way of “dealing” with wrongdoers.

Government is a heirarchy. Law flows from a root node at the top to leaf nodes at the bottom. It’s a one-way process, with only a very weak and indirect feedback mechanism in the form of voting, and to a limited extend civil disobediance (including things like “cheating” on taxes, or “evading” them). Note that I have nothing against heirarchy per se, only that I think it is inappropriate to a context where coercion is a potential factor.

Society in general, on the other hand, is a distributed network (less so lately, though that is a different issue). Through this network flows all the benefits of society - trade, information, resources, assistance, social relations, etc. There is no one root node - no single source for things - and there are few or no leaf nodes, or true sinks for what travels over the network. The feedback here is intense. Benefits propogate through the network, with some attenuation, strengthening the network as a whole. This then redounds indirectly to the benefit of the source of the original benefit. Harm does the same thing, and the feedback works the same.

Any single node’s ability to benefit from the network is a function of its connectivity to it. More connectivity means more “inputs”, more of the benefits - as well as the harms - of society flow through it. It also means more outputs, that node is able to affect the network more strongly, for both good and bad. A node, or collection of nodes, that is isolated from the network due to few or no connections, is limited in both how the network can affect it, and how it can affect the network. This isolated node receives relatively little benefit, but on the other hand can do relatively little harm.

In a network where connection can be made or broken - or strengthened and weakened - cheaply, the network organically orients itself toward beneficial nodes, and organically routes around damage. Those connections from which an individual node receives the most benefit will be strengthened, and those from which an individual node recieves harm will be weakened, or severed all together. Those nodes that provide little of either will neither grow nor shrink significantly. This does not require any node to know the ultimate source of the benefit or harm, only to judge the benefit or harm of the immediate neighbors to which it is directly connected. Any of those nodes may not provide any benefit or harm directly, but to the extent it propogates the benefit or harm done by others, it’s connections will be strengthened or weakened accordingly.

Now take this social network and make it an anarchist one by taking law and defense out of the heirarchal and allowing individual nodes to provide it to the network. The same dynamics will apply. Those who are beneficial - just law, effective defense - will have their connections strengthened. Those who provide harm - murderers and those who protect them, for instance - will have their connections weakened. You - a murderer - along with any defense agency foolish enough to protect you, will find yourselves increasingly isolated. The effect of this will be a reduction of the resources you have available to cause harm, but that will not be the purpose of it. The purpose will be for each individual node to weigh the cost and benefit of a given connection, perhaps one far removed from your direct influence, and act accordingly.

An intermediate node, perhaps your defense agency, will face the choice between harm coming from one side, and the loss of connectivity by self-preserving nodes on the other side. They may choose your side of the bargain, but no matter, the network will protect itself, and you can do whatever you want in your increasingly smaller world.

Of course, should you try to preserve your connections by force, more deliberate action may become necessary - your neck may become the point at which the connecion is severed. But in any case, it is not necessary to have a single decision maker, nor for anyone to have the explicit goal of punishing you. They don’t even need to know you exist. And the benefit to you, the murderer, in all this is that your isolation is unlikely to be absolute. There will be some few nodes who may choose to remain connected to you, for whatever reason (friendship, familial relations, business dealings), while limiting the propogation of your harm so as not to endanger their outward-facing connectivity. Should you then have an epiphany - or merely see yourself isolated beyond your tolerance - and decide to start providing benefit or at least ceasing to harm your still connected neighbors, you have a channel through which to slowly re-establish your place in the network.

What if two people can’t agree upon a court system?

If they pursue that refusal to agree far enough, then one of them will be forced into something. Are you agreeing now that your statement of “no matter what” is amended to “if they refuse to agree”?

Yes, but I thought that was implied; clearly, the only cases we’re talking about is when they can’t agree.

You said “no matter what”. Unless I’m missing something, that includes both cases where the don’t agree, and where they do agree. If your argument is that, in matters of force, people will either agree to a resolution or one will be forced upon one party or the other, you’re right. But I don’t see much value in making the point, except perhaps in establishing an axiom pursuant to further analysis. Even then, it’s an axiom of society in general, not of a particular form of social organization such as anarchy.

My point is that the “coercion” happening under my system would be happening under Brainpolice’s system, too.

I think you’re trading on the ambiguity in the word “coercion”. Coercion as typically used in this context is limited to initiatory force. Defensive or restitutive force is not typically described as coercion - though the strict definition allows for it, it is not understood that way. So when you say that coercion happens under an ancap system, do you mean it to refer to, say, a situation where somebody steals my car and I or my agents forcibly obtain its return?

If you don’t mean it that way, what coercion do you claim is occuring? If you do mean it that way, that you do not distinguish between initiatory force and defensive/restitutive force, then we are at a stalemate. I cannot counter your claim because we have no basis from which to argue it, and I cannot concede it because I do not conced the premise on which it is based.

On the matter of a final court, see For a New Liberty, page 230 and onwards (239 on the Acrobat Reader.)

-Jon

Are you opposed to having a default court system?

Yes.

Though I suspect we’ll have to argue over the definition of “default”

It’s the one that’s used when neither party can agree.

Then, no. The two firms would choose a neutral third party to settle it.

And in the case they can’t agree upon a neutral third party?