David Osterfeld on natural rights

Here’s Hoppe’s succinct description of his own theory:

“Instead, it is a proof that it is impossible to propositionally justify non-libertarian principles without falling into contradictions.”(underline added)

The contradiction in Hoppe’s AE is not a formal or logical contradiction, but a “performative” contradiction, e.g., saying aloud “I am not talking.”

One simple problem occurs in Hoppe’s theory if he doesn’t account for the intention of the actor. So for example, someone who says aloud “I am not talking” may be practicing for a play, or wanting to hear the sound of his own voice, or trying to irritate a proponent of the AE, etc…

(this idea is taken from John Searle’s Minds, Brains and Science, p.57, which Hoppe cites in a debate with Block)

Another problem that is usually overlooked. Hoppe’s theory essentially links two things: “arguing for a nonlibertarian ethic,” and
“contradiction.”

The plain meaning of his theory is that anyone arguing for a nonlibertarian ethic contradicts himself, and such a contradiction is the negative consequence a person must suffer for advancing nonlibertarian ideas during argumentation. The contradiction is clearly meant to be something negative or harmful for the person committing it. If Hoppe’s theory were proven correct, then an actor could use the information Hoppe’s theory provides to avoid a specific type of harm or unhappiness: In order to avoid a type of uhappines (Y), do not argue for nonlibertarian ethics (X).

In other words, if Hoppe’s theory is correct, then it links two phenomena–the act of person A, and some negative cosequence to A–and shows person A how to avoid the consequence by abstaining from the act. But then, this is praxeology proper. It is a demonstration of the apodictically certain consequences of a specific form of human action, i.e., argumentation.

The main point is that if Hoppe’s theory were proven correct, it would constitute essentially an analysis of the necessary consequences of a specific means of action, and would thus constitute a simple praxeological insight or law.

The problem for Hoppe’s theory is that in order to demonstrate apodictically certain relations between things, the analytical method used may have to be free of particular content (in social science, this is referred to as “value free”) similar to the way mathematics and formal logic proceed, without specifiying particulars.

But this approach is closed to Hoppe to the extent he seeks to “justify” a particular: the Lockean private property ethic.

Hoppe is trying to establish apodictically certain relations while using particulars as theoretical elements. This is the source from which most of the problems derive.

the ‘problems’ you pose are not…

in the case of an actor, you have set upo the premise that he is not arguing, that his statements are not attempt to put forward propositions.

Hoppe is not arguing that ‘bad consequences’ arise from saying falsehoods, and these bads are the incentive to be moral. can you find a qoute to support this allegation? (lying and or being wrong may increase ones odds of entailing bad consequences but thats obviously a contengent argument that hoppe didnt even brush on from what I have read…(this is off-topic)) , Hoppe merely provides a theory of understanding what are the falsehoods when they are said. thats enough.

I say ‘merely’ but its an awesome achievement.

Sorry, but completely ignoring my entire post without explaining why I’m making a strawman doesn’t make your case. I am describing argumentation ethics as Hoppe himself has put it foreward. There is no strawman. Hoppe claims that the very act of argumentation falsifies any argument against libertarianism.

Person A: I believe X is true, do you agree ?

Person B: Yup.

(no argument, only a discussion)

Person A writes on a piece of paper: Truth claim X. (no argument, only writing on paper)

Person A thinks to himself: “I believe X is true.” (no argument, only thinking)

Person A points a gun at person B and claims: “X is true !!” (no argument, only a command, coercive act, etc…)

i would like to take your word for it but i need more than that. some proof or summat i dunno. i would like to agree but it doesnt seem right just saying its a fact, accept it.

it just seems so much like god created the universe, but…???

i think i’m out of my league, my philosophical skills are very poor

That’s precisely my point - the attempt to act as if anyone argueing against the ethic of “self-ownership” is denying the fact of physiological autonomy or intentionality is a conflation between normative ethics and physical or metaphysical facts. The attempt to “prove” the right of “self-ownership” by simply appealing to the fact that people have physiological autonomy is quite obviously a conflation between the descriptive and perscriptive. At no point does this really “get around” the is/ought issue in any way whatsoever. It simply conflates is and ought.

how would you like me to respond? with non-sequiturs of my own?

yes.

no wait.

some proof? reasoning??

well if you didnt strawman before , now you have since :

no one is 'attempting to act as if anyone argueing against the ethic of “self-ownership” is denying the fact of physiological autonomy or intentionality ’

we are attempting to act as if anyone argueing against the ethic of selfownership is being absurd and this is known by observing their performance of a performative contradiction

taco, my question about how to respond was to mr knott. maybe you and i should have a private conversation, or open a new thread. this one is already off topic.

Please provide the passages in Hoppe’s argumentation ethics where he refers to the concept of “falsehoods.”

And I’m saying that this claim is horseshit. It can only be gotten away with by conflating perscriptive statements with descriptive ones. For example, if I say “there is no right of self-ownership”, argumentation ethics can only claim that this is a “performative contradiction” by conflating “the right of self-ownership” with the fact that people purposefully act or have physiological control of their bodies. But “the right of self-ownership” is not the fact that people have physiological control of their bodies, it is a normative ethical premise based on non-interferance of their bodies by an external authority. By making the statement “there is no right to self-ownership”, I am not contradicting the fact that I have physiological control of my body, because I’m not denying that I have physiological control of my body. There is no contradiction, hence the misleading nature of the argument.

are you just saying it to the wall?. or are you arguing it and therefore presupposing various interpersonal norms?

From the fact that I’m argueing it, it does not logically follow that I am presupposing your interpersonal norms. In fact, it is you who is presupposing your interpersonal norms and trying to universalize it onto the very act of argumentation in the attempt to falsify any argument against it, which is sophistry. It does not logically follow from the fact that I peacefully debate you that the alternatives to peaceful debate are falseified as interpersonal norms any more than it logically follows from the fact that I bludgeon you over the head with an axe that the alternatives to bludgeoning people over the head with axes are falseified as interpersonal norms. You need to make a positive case for your interpersonal norms; appealing to the behavior of the person that you’re argueing with won’t cut it.

do you deny that his argumentation ethics involves understanding that some set of propositions are false , and knowing this by recognising the performative contradiction involved in the stating of them. ?

if you dont deny it, then dont be petulant. if you do deny it I will ask you how you manage that…

are you presupposing any interpersonal norms, or am i just a wall ?

wallgrahamUK

I am not inherently presupposing your specific interpersonal norms by simply argueing with you rather than a wall. The question “am I just a wall?” misses the point, which is that interpersonal norms are not proven or disproven by how people behave in debates.

what (if any) interpersonal norms do you think are implicit in argumentation?

I didn’t. Now then, just to humor you: have you heard of the fallacy of special pleading? I assume you have. Take it from there.

So yes: it is a strawman. You need to read what Hoppe writes, rather than what you want him to have written. That’s piss-poor debating on your part.