Does praxeology imply that there is no free will?

According to the idea of praxeology (in my words but the meaning is the same) man will act in order to fufill his value preference according to his perspective (his view of the world, if someone values the idea of eating something and his perspective says that there is a hamburger in front of him and he can eat it then he will act upon his perspective, his model of the world). This idea, as Mises stated, is irrefutable and self evident. Does this imply that free will does not exist? There is no actual choice for man, he will always perform those actions which he values according to his perspective.

Indeed isn’t the very concept of free will ignorant? The human brain is part of the physical universe, it must follow laws just as the rest of the universe, there is no choice as such, there is merely values which are formed by perceptions and the buildup of the brain, and the thoughts sparked by these factors, but even these thoughts don’t matter because the brain will still act to fufill its value preferences, there is no choice, only options which have a set outcome.

I’m not experienced with the free will debate so if this has been discussed before then forgive me.

I recommend that you investigate compatibilism. Daniel Dennett is a tremendous scholar in this field.

No, you are free to change your preferences whenever and however you like.

I tried to choose to be gay but it didn’t work

Indeed, there’s no will (or anything for that matter) free (or outside) of physical laws. That still doesn’t preclude us from modeling (comprehending) the resulting patterns in our complex neural processes (such as your decision to write the OP) as “choices” that “we make” if it allows us to better flourish in this physical world.

Indeed, there’s no will (or anything for that matter) free (or outside) of physical laws. That still doesn’t preclude us from modeling (comprehending) the resulting patterns in our complex neural processes (such as your decision to write the OP) as “choices” that “we make” if it allows us to better flourish in this physical world.

This is scientistic nonsense. Read from Rothbard’s The Mantle of Science.

The Problem of Free Will

Before proceeding further, we must pause to consider the validity of free will, for it is curious that the determinist dogma has so often been accepted as the uniquely scientific position. And while many philosophers have demonstrated the existence of free will, the concept has all too rarely been applied to the “social sciences.”

In the first place, each human being knows universally from introspection that he chooses. The positivists and behaviorists may scoff at introspection all they wish, but it remains true that the introspective knowledge of a conscious man that he is conscious and acts is a fact of reality. What, indeed, do the determinists have to offer to set against introspective fact? Only a poor and misleading analogy from the physical sciences. It is true that all mindless matter is determined and purposeless. But it is highly inappropriate, and moreover question-begging, simply and uncritically to apply the model of physics to man.

Why, indeed, should we accept determinism in nature? The reason we say that things are determined is that every existing thing must have a specific existence. Having a specific existence, it must have certain definite, definable, delimitable attributes, that is, every thing must have a specific nature. Every being, then, can act or behave only in accordance with its nature, and any two beings can interact only in accord with their respective natures. Therefore, the actions of every being are caused by, determined by, its nature.[3]

But while most things have no consciousness and therefore pursue no goals, it is an essential attribute of man’s nature that he has consciousness, and therefore that his actions are self-determined by the choices his mind makes.

At very best, the application of determinism to man is just an agenda for the future. After several centuries of arrogant proclamations, no determinist has come up with anything like a theory determining all of men’s actions. Surely the burden of proof must rest on the one advancing a theory, particularly when the theory contradicts man’s primary impressions. Surely we can, at the very least, tell the determinists to keep quiet until they can offer their determinations — including, of course, their advance determinations of each of our reactions to their determining theory. But there is far more that can be said. For determinism, as applied to man, is a self-contradictory thesis, since the man who employs it relies implicitly on the existence of free will.

If we are determined in the ideas we accept, then X, the determinist, is determined to believe in determinism, while Y, the believer in free will, is also determined to believe in his own doctrine. Since man’s mind is, according to determinism, not free to think and come to conclusions about reality, it is absurd for X to try to convince Y or anyone else of the truth of determinism. In short, the determinist must rely, for the spread of his ideas, on the nondetermined, free-will choices of others, on their free will to adopt or reject ideas.[4] In the same way, the various brands of determinists — behaviorists, positivists, Marxists, and so on — implicitly claim special exemption for themselves from their own determined systems.[5] But if a man cannot affirm a proposition without employing its negation, he is not only caught in an inextricable self-contradiction; he is conceding to the negation the status of an axiom.[6]

A corollary self-contradiction: the determinists profess to be able, some day, to determine what man’s choices and actions will be. But, on their own grounds, their own knowledge of this determining theory is itself determined. How then can they aspire to know all, if the extent of their own knowledge is itself determined, and therefore arbitrarily delimited? In fact, if our ideas are determined, then we have no way of freely revising our judgments and of learning truth — whether the truth of determinism or of anything else.[7]

Thus, the determinist, to advocate his doctrine, must place himself and his theory outside the allegedly universally determined realm, that is, he must employ free will. This reliance of determinism on its negation is an instance of a wider truth: that it is self-contradictory to use reason in any attempt to deny the validity of reason as a means of attaining knowledge. Such self-contradiction is implicit in such currently fashionable sentiments as “reason shows us that reason is weak,” or “the more we know, the more we know how little we know.”[8]

Some may object that man is not really free because he must obey natural laws. To say that man is not free because he is not able to do anything he may possibly desire, however, confuses freedom and power.[9] It is clearly absurd to employ as a definition of “freedom” the power of an entity to perform an impossible action, to violate its nature.[10]

“Scientism is the profoundly unscientific attempt to transfer uncritically the methodology of the physical sciences to the study of human action.”

Determinists often imply that a man’s ideas are necessarily determined by the ideas of others, of “society.” Yet A and B can hear the same idea propounded; A can adopt it as valid while B will not. Each man, therefore, has the free choice of adopting or not adopting an idea or value. It is true that many men may uncritically adopt the ideas of others; yet this process cannot regress infinitely. At some point in time, the idea originated, that is, the idea was not taken from others, but was arrived at by some mind independently and creatively. This is logically necessary for any given idea. “Society,” therefore, cannot dictate ideas. If someone grows up in a world where people generally believe that “all redheads are demons,” he is free, as he grows up, to rethink the problem and arrive at a different conclusion. If this were not true, ideas, once adopted, could never have been changed. We conclude, therefore, that true science decrees determinism for physical nature and free will for man, and for the same reason: that every thing must act in accordance with its specific nature. And since men are free to adopt ideas and to act upon them, it is never events or stimuli external to the mind that cause its ideas; rather the mind freely adopts ideas about external events. A savage, an infant, and a civilized man will each react in entirely different ways to the sight of the same stimulus — be it a fountain pen, an alarm clock, or a machine gun, for each mind has different ideas about the object’s meaning and qualities.[11] Let us therefore never again say that the Great Depression of the 1930s caused men to adopt socialism or interventionism (or that poverty causes people to adopt Communism). The depression existed, and men were moved to think about this striking event; but that they adopted socialism or its equivalent as the way out was not determined by the event; they might just as well have chosen laissez-faire or Buddhism or any other attempted solution. The deciding factor was the idea that people chose to adopt.

What led the people to adopt particular ideas? Here the historian may enumerate and weigh various factors, but he must always stop short at the ultimate freedom of the will. Thus, in any given matter, a person may freely decide either to think about a problem independently or to accept uncritically the ideas offered by others. Certainly, the bulk of the people, especially in abstract matters, choose to follow the ideas offered by the intellectuals. At the time of the Great Depression, there was a host of intellectuals offering the nostrum of statism or socialism as a cure for the depression, while very few suggested laissez-faire or absolute monarchy.

The realization that ideas, freely adopted, determine social institutions, and not vice versa, illuminates many critical areas of the study of man. Rousseau and his host of modern followers, who hold that man is good, but corrupted by his institutions, must finally wither under the query: And who but men created these institutions? The tendency of many modern intellectuals to worship the primitive (also the childlike — especially the child “progressively” educated — the “natural” life of the noble savage of the South Seas, and so on) has perhaps the same roots. We are also told repeatedly that differences between largely isolated tribes and ethnic groups are “culturally determined”: tribe X being intelligent or peaceful because of its X-culture; tribe Y, dull or warlike because of Y-culture. If we fully realize that the men of each tribe created its own culture (unless we are to assume its creation by some mystic deus ex machina), we see that this popular “explanation” is no better than explaining the sleep-inducing properties of opium by its “dormitive power.” Indeed, it is worse, because it adds the error of social determinism.

It will undoubtedly be charged that this discussion of free will and determinism is “one-sided” and that it leaves out the alleged fact that all of life is multicausal and interdependent. We must not forget, however, that the very goal of science is simpler explanations of wider phenomena. In this case, we are confronted with the fact that there can logically be only one ultimate sovereign over a man’s actions: either his own free will or some cause outside that will. There is no other alternative, there is no middle ground, and therefore the fashionable eclecticism of modern scholarship must in this case yield to the hard realities of the Law of the Excluded Middle.

“It is self-contradictory to use reason in any attempt to deny the validity of reason as a means of attaining knowledge.”

If free will has been vindicated, how can we prove the existence of consciousness itself? The answer is simple: to prove means to make evident something not yet evident. Yet some propositions may be already evident to the self, that is, self-evident. A self-evident axiom, as we have indicated, will be a proposition which cannot be contradicted without employing the axiom itself in the attempt. And the existence of consciousness is not only evident to all of us through direct introspection, but is also a fundamental axiom, for the very act of doubting consciousness must itself be performed by a consciousness.[12] Thus, the behaviorist who spurns consciousness for “objective” laboratory data must rely on the consciousness of his laboratory associates to report the data to him.

The key to scientism is its denial of the existence of individual consciousness and will.[13] This takes two main forms: applying mechanical analogies from the physical sciences to individual men, and applying organismic analogies to such fictional collective wholes as “society.” The latter course attributes consciousness and will, not to individuals, but to some collective organic whole of which the individual is merely a determined cell. Both methods are aspects of the rejection of individual consciousness.

The argument that physical matter is confined to absolute certainties is based on the physics of classical mechanics or Laplacian determinism.

Nothing is certain, and as you peel away the layers of the physical universe, at its core, all matter is governed by the laws of quantum mechanics. And according to quantum mechanics everything exist in probabilistic states called wavefunctions. It’s at the realm of particles and molecules that the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle takes central stage and the universe behaves in very abstract mechanisms. Thus, determinism was disproved with the dawn of quantum theory, and absolute time was shattered with Einstein’s theory of General and Special Relativity.

Uncertainty is a phenomena that can be seen in any physical chemistry or condensed matter laboratory. I’m currently studying molecular structures at very cold temperatures (40-60 Kelvin), and I’m always astonished by molecular and atomic fluctuations inherent in all matter. Even if we could cool systems that approached 0 Kelvin, the fluctuations would still exist. Thus, uncertainty is not a product of our inability in formulating or probing particles or molecules, but an integral condition of all existence.

Abskebabs has discussed quantum theory numerous times, and the underlying effects due to quantum theory.

only if people cause things, can free will exist. That is, free will is what allows people to cause stuff. But if free will doesn’t exist, then that can only be because people don’t cause stuff. But people do cause things to happen so it is not true that free will is just illusion.

Well, that’s my argument.

Please point to the part below that you found especially nonsensical:

A claim that everything in the universe must be subject to physical laws (deterministic or not, is besides the point) doesn’t have to contradict the claim that free will – a complex physical process/entity defined/comprehended as such by yet another complex physical process/entity (self) – exists. Rothbard’s dichotomy is false, and frankly, unnecessary.

If human choice is not caused, then it is random. Either way, the traditional notion of a “free will” is pretty doubtful.

“If human choice is not caused, then it is random. Either way, the traditional notion of a “free will” is pretty doubtful”

That’s exactly what I thought when considering the issue, and if free will did exist as such (in that it was totally random) then one could certianly consider that there is indeed no “will” simply “freedom” as “will” can certianly be argued to have an direct end intended, and purpose in mind, rather than just being random… And I would assume that the fact that one can predict under certian conditions exactly what an individual will do so long as he is given the correct amount of information, would disprove the idea of a “free will” as such.

I like the way that this thread is going so far. I need to read the Rothbard article but from the first few paragraphs it looks like more of Rothbard’s ethical crap… Rothbard was such a brilliant economist but it is really incredible how he always refused to apply praxeology and the subjective theory of value, those things which produced HIS WORK, and apply them to human behavior in terms of “morality”

It seems that Rothbard (and others like him) want to hold on to the doctrine of free will because in their view, freedom is the basis for moral responsibility. This is the perennial objection to determinism. However, I don’t think that it is necessarily true. Just because every event has a cause doesn’t mean that ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ are meaningless concepts.

Once this objection is cleared up, I don’t see how anyone could not be a determinist. Either our choices are ruled by causal relationships or they are random. Either way, ‘free will’ doesn’t exist.

I remember Mises in Human Action arguing as follows:

  1. The scientific method, or induction, ultimately has no sound logical reason to accept it other than “it works”.

  2. Similarly, the assumption of free will explains so much, [which the opposite assumption does not], that it has the same force of “it works” supporting it.

I’m honoured and flattered that Czelaya considers me an authority on the subject, though I’m sure if we actually met I’m fairly sure there would be some dissapointment..

With regard to uncertainty, I’m sorry if I sound like a parrot, but I think Mises’ statements are pretty sound. It’s true, classical mechanics was mired in a deterministic, clockwork view of the universe that pretty much held that as long as one knew the initial conditions and forces acting at the genesis one’s system, one would be able to perfectly predict its trajectory. Einstein’s theories of special and general relativity severely challenged notions of causality and inter-relatedness of events of previously taken for granted, with the latter even introducing observations that would be in principle absolutely unobservable(I believe the technical term used by my professor was “absolutely elsewhere” :P). However, within the scope of events one can ascertain as related by timelike intervals(ones that are a distance smaller than light can traverse in the same time; at least for special relativity) it is fair to say relativity doesn’t challenge classical determinism.

Quantum Mechanics however destroys the certain determinism, and introduces variables that can only be known to a certain degree or not at all, as a matter of epistemological principle(e.g. via Heisenberf’s Uncertainty Principle). The determinist could still retort however, that determinsim remains since these laws are still “deterministic”, only not perfectly so, giving only probabilistic information with regard to the universe’s time and spatial evolution to a very high degree of accuracy. Indeed, not that I subscribe to this interpretation(Many Worlds), but one could stretch the argument to say that with a miliion gazillion universes one could run, one would find the statistics of behaviour in accord with a perfectly computed probabilitic QM calculation(not taking into account how difficult this would be).

Chaos theory throws further wood onto the fire, since most systems are nonlinear, and many of these are chaotic to one degree or another, and hence diverge to great extents given small alterations of their initial conditions, further obscuring our knowledge of them, as well as our abillity to predict their progression which I feel also must have much to do with information entropy and its corresponding decrease.

In any case, the lesson learned is that determinism, from the perspective of the “prime mover” is a metaphysical hypothesis. With regard to human action, and our knowledge of the universe as humans, a completely determinstic(even weakly) perspective of the universe’s progression is not only unavailable to us, but in many ways has been shown to be impossible in principle. The lesson 20th century physics has absorbed, and in many ways praxeology begins, is to recognise the limitedness and character of knowledge concerning the universe given our perspective.

czelaya said:

The argument that physical matter is confined to absolute certainties is based on the physics of classical mechanics or Laplacian determinism.

Nothing is certain, and as you peel away the layers of the physical universe, at its core, all matter is governed by the laws of quantum mechanics. And according to quantum mechanics everything exist in probabilistic states called wavefunctions. It’s at the realm of particles and molecules that the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle takes central stage and the universe behaves in very abstract mechanisms. Thus, determinism was disproved with the dawn of quantum theory, and absolute time was shattered with Einstein’s theory of General and Special Relativity.

Uncertainty is a phenomena that can be seen in any physical chemistry or condensed matter laboratory. I’m currently studying molecular structures at very cold temperatures (40-60 Kelvin), and I’m always astonished by molecular and atomic fluctuations inherent in all matter. Even if we could cool systems that approached 0 Kelvin, the fluctuations would still exist. Thus, uncertainty is not a product of our inability in formulating or probing particles or molecules, but an integral condition of all existence.

Abskebabs has discussed quantum theory numerous times, and the underlying effects due to quantum theory.

I think declaring the universe deterministic or non-deterministic is nothing more than an unproven assertion. It is only that some interpretations of quantum mechanics suggest non-determinism, while other interpretations suggest determinism.

Also, quantum mechanics doesn’t yet include explanations for gravity and therefore doesn’t fully describe all matter and forces (which is why m-theory/string theory, loop quantum gravity theory, etc, exist in attempt to reconcile quantum mechanics with relativity), let alone explain what occurs in black holes, before the “big bang”, what time is (which may just be a perceptual phenomena), etc.

I will say that the more I study and learn about artificial intelligence and the brain, the more my personal belief is reinforced that scientists will find the universe (or multiverse) to be deterministic, or at least that any potential non-deterministic processes of the universe have little relevance in the emergent properties of the brain, showing the brain functions in a practically, if not definitely deterministic manner.

At the same time, whether deterministic or not, we can never fully predict anything with absolute certainty in the the universe/multiverse since, in the case that it were deterministic, it would require all the information of every single piece of the universe/multiverse to perform such a calculation, and in the case that it were non-deterministic, by definition even an identical copy of the universe would, due to it’s non-deterministic processes, produce different results (which I personally find absurd). It will likely always be argued by someone that just because a cause has not yet been found doesn’t mean that one doesn’t exist, since those claiming no cause (absolute, pure randomness) cannot prove there is no cause (can’t prove a negative).

Disclaimer: I am not a physicist, biologist, neuroscientist, psychologist, etc.

Rothbard’s dichotomy is false, and frankly, unnecessary.

I agree, except only insomuch as I would put forth the theory that the sun will rise tomorrow. I think what you are outlining is the position of materialist monism, which Mises explains in the very early parts of Human Action.

Materialist monism contends that human thoughts and volitions are the product of the operation of bodily organs, the cells of the brain and the nerves. Human thought, will, and action are solely brought about by material processes which one day will be completely explained by the methods of physical and chemical inquiry. This too is a metaphysical hypothesis, although it supporters consider it as an unshakable and undeniable scientific truth.

False dichotomy. Why can’t the will be self caused? On though trying to defend free will via quantum mechanics that certainly falls into the random category.

For further reading I’d have a look through this thread:

https://forum.freecapitalists.org/t/free-will-and-determinism/8587

It’s more like physical law monism, in the sense that nothing in this universe exists/happens outside (or free) of such laws. Whether it’s matter, energy, or something else (yet unknown) not included in the model, is irrelevant.

Yes, except (1) “material” is only a subset of “physical” and (2) eventual “complete” explanation of such processes (inescapably by way of those processes “explaining” themselves to themselves) is unnecessary.

Free Will is irrelevent. Either we have it in some form (in which case we make our own decisions of the future and so on), or we THINK we have it in some form (in which case we still make decisions and they are just as important, it is just that we are preordained to do them regardless of what choice we “might” have made).

The only way it comes into reality is in, say, an afterlife. How can an evil person be evil if they were preordained to do what they did? They HAD to do it, it was fate after all. Actually, that excuse could stretch to just about anything. For that reason, people can think either, but must act as though they have free will.

Compatibalism FTW. Other is just semantics.