Free Healthcare/Education a fundamental right.

[Jon_Irenicus]

Voluntary exchanges of privately owned, alienable goods (and services.) There, defined.

-Jon

[jsuperx]

I already think yours are better than mine. I just dont see how you can put that philosophy to work. It is just a philosophy like communism is.

I dont think you are left, but far right.

I pray God i see the FED being abolished before I die. That is more realistic that any free market philosophy I have been told and yet, chances are it wont happen during my life time.

@liberty student

@Cesar

This stuff that you guys talk so much about “free markets”. How does it work??? you can just tell me in a few sentenses. I am getting the feeling that what Marx was to communism maybe Human Action is the same but to the far right???

You’re far right. Most of the people here would probably say they are far left. You are the one who endorses an oppressive state to control liberty and to steal by force. We are the one who believe in liberty and freedom.

How can you not understand human action? Have you never observed the actions of others, or reflected on your own actions? The first failing of people with your socially democratic leanings, is that they don’t look at what is, only what they think should be.

There is no shortage of material on this site to study human action, or in refutation of Marx. Marx is not rejected because he is left, he is rejected because he was wrong, and when you take his ideas to their logical conclusions/extremes, the result is genocide and starvation.

I think you have a lot of unlearning to do. Will you be courageous enough to challenge your existing beliefs against ours, and honestly admit if ours prove to be better? There is no shame in admitting you might be wrong (I was wrong when I arrived here), but there is an enormous amount of shame in not admitting you are wrong. Pride is the enemy of knowledge.

[liberty_student]

@Cesar

I am most interest on things that would work in the real world where human action is present on everyday life.

Cesar, in the “real world” pro-life Catholics endorse dropping bombs on pregnant mothers. In the “real world” wars are fabricated on lies, and millions of innocent people die. In the “real world”, there is a growing gap between rich and poor. In the “real world” people continue to starve, even when there is an abundance of food. In the “real world” people are tortured by democratic governments supposedly instituted to enforce the rule of law and the preservation of human liberty.

The “real world”, your social democratic world is an epic failure.

@Cesar

Are you aware that your ideas about economics are very philosophical and you will never see any of them materialized???

You don’t even understand Human Action, how can you claim to know what my ideas are? As far as never seeing them materialized, I see them in practice all the time. You are a lousy prognosticator.

@Cesar

Specially that so called free market that nobody has been able or willing to define.

What do you mean nobody is able or willing? Why have you not read anything on this site?

@Cesar

BTW give an example of a free market society. Just one.

The internet.

Millions of independent actors, of different races, creeds and colours, varied ages and languages, all working, communicating, trading and participating without government rules or laws. Exchanging ideas, music, art, philosophy and arguments.

I would argue this is not only a free market society, but the largest society ever.

[Jon_Irenicus]

I dont think you are left, but far right.

Why?

[Sphairon]

@Cesar

You missed this: Deductive philosophy not for economics, but for your free market ideal. It is an ideal which I have been trying to challange and no one has been hable to argue like professionals. Instead you hide your attacks towards my spelling and call my difference of opinion a nonsense …even by a moderator. How about if you start immitating Ron Paul. He is a politician a doctor and an economist. Look at him, you will never get there.

There is nothing free about you people.

Neither did I attack your spelling nor did I call your ideas nonsense. I just pointed out that your point is largely based on a sense of entitlement and sentiments of nationalism. Those logically deducted arguments you’ve employed have already been addressed by Liberty Student.

I don’t understand what you mean by “deductive philosophy not for economics, but for your free market ideal”. The fact that we herald a free market system results from our insights in the economic realm that we’ve achieved by using deduction and logic.

By the way, please stop the ad hominems. It’s just not necessary.

[ladyattis]

Cesar, there’s a few problems with your arguments so far.

1. You are basing them on unspoken premises that haven’t been proven to be self-consistent. Whether it’s the nationalism premise (you reference ‘your’ countrymen, and such) or whether it’s the assumption there are no X in unfortunate situations (btw, I know a man who was in the latter half of the Vietnam War and was an atheist at the time and still is, so your argument on no atheists in foxholes is invalid…), they’re all up for grabs to be refuted. And if they are, then the arguments built upon them implode as well.

2. You are putting words in posters mouths without proof such as the claim that the posters think economics is social only or markets only without a single quote that proves as such. That’s dirty pool, Cesar, you’ve lost credibility based on that.

3. Your claim of expertise is dubious. Anyone online can claim to be X without any proof. You claim a Masters degree without proving you have it and that it’s even accredited Hell, since you’re going to claim that I’ll go to claim that I am secretly an analyst for CATO just to show how stupid the expertise without substantiation dropping is. Also, even if you do prove your credentials, that doesn’t act as a magic wand that removes the fatal flaws of your arguments so far. It just shows how poor your reasoning is despite the years of study and debts accrued for the degree (garbage in, garbage out?).

Anyways, if you can prove that other human beings have an implicit debt to cover other human beings with healthcare and education then you got my attention, but I doubt you’ll find any invisible cord and leash of moral debt fixed to anyone’s neck here or else where on Earth. Also, you need to make the argument itself self-consistent as it doesn’t go off the far side of absurdity when examined for core cases which violate the argument itself.

In the end, you came barging in with a positive claim, now prove it.

[scineram]

@liberty student

I would argue this is not only a free market society, but the largest society ever.

I am going to quote this til eternity.

[jsuperx]

Liberty student:

You already mentioned people’s problem. If the best example to support for your human action and free market philosophy is the internet…you are doomed to failure.

You are right I dont know your ideas but let me tell you mines.

I found about the Austrian School, Milton Friedman and Ron Paul on my own guts. While in college I was very smart to find flaws in our monetary system and many other non sense theories. For a moment I felt stupid disagreeing even with my professor and not being able to back up my statements about money creation. Then of course I found my answers. But I am interested in real economics, not philosophy. It is lost ground, wasted time.

[jsuperx]

ladyattis### I guess you missed everything. I dont intend to prove or to be proven anything.### So far the best example to your theory of free market and no govt has been the internet. But Nations that have the best quality of live, education, healthcare, political stability are socio-democratic. There you have my proof.

[Jon_Irenicus]

That is not a proof. That is the post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy. And it answers no important questions. “Best” relative to what? Other states? Hong Kong is about as close as it comes to a free market at present. Most other countries, including the USA, are social democracies, whose track records pale by comparison to their laissez-faire heydays.

[jsuperx]

So…you what laissez-faire, free market, no govt at all, maybe not even cops, and that will make you very happy???

How about other things like 5 basic human needs??? You dont mind??

@Jon Irenicus

That is not a proof. That is the post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy. And it answers no important questions. “Best” relative to what? Other states? Hong Kong is about as close as it comes to a free market at present. Most other countries, including the USA, are social democracies, whose track records pale by comparison to their laissez-faire heydays.

[Jon_Irenicus]

Private production of all goods and services. We do not “need” the government, nor do we “need” any other monopoly on force. See here. But no, a right to enslave someone else to provide you with a “need” is definitely not high on my list of priorities.

[Laughing_Man]

Why is everyone under the assumption that if there is no government, corporations will suddenly lack a reason for existing?

[jsuperx]

I dont know. I think they believe without govt all their problems are solved because everything else is market.

Market is not the answer. It is only part of the answer. To make it better it has be less restrained, just laws, and no central bankers. But it is only part of the solution not the answer itselft…far from it.

@Laughing Man

Why is everyone under the assumption that if there is no government, corporations will suddenly lack a reason for existing?

[Jon_Irenicus]

I believe he was questioning your premises.

[liberty_student]

@Cesar

You already mentioned people’s problem. If the best example to support for your human action and free market philosophy is the internet…you are doomed to failure.

Why?

@Cesar

But I am interested in real economics, not philosophy.

I think you are only interested in answers that reinforce what you already believe. I don’t think you are here to learn anything. How can you hope to find solutions, if you won’t even consider if the question is the right one?

@Cesar

It is lost ground, wasted time.

The lost ground, is your stubbornness and refusal to answer directly.

Answer these please, individually;

Does justice matter?

If it does, then is it just to take from me to save a dying person?

What if I resist? Should you be able to kill me if I do not help you save the dying person?

By what right do you come to the ability to impose this manner of justice on others?

[liberty_student]

@Cesar

i dont know. I think they believe without govt all their problems are solved because everything else is market.

No. Again you show, you do not even know what “we” think. The market will not solve all problems. It will solve problems fairly. Government does not solve problems, it creates problems, because it’s only tools are to create inequity by taking from some, and giving to others.

@Cesar

Market is not the answer. It is only part of the answer.

Why?

@Cesar

To make it better it has be less restrained, just laws, and no central bankers. But it is only part of the solution not the answer itselft…far from it.

How do you know this?

@Laughing Man

Why is everyone under the assumption that if there is no government, corporations will suddenly lack a reason for existing?

Please, search the board for this. We don’t need the familiar rabbit hole in this discussion. It has been covered numerous times.

[jsuperx]

@liberty student

Answer these please, individually;

Does justice matter?

Yes it does.

If it does, then is it just to take from me to save a dying person?

You bet it is.

What if I resist? Should you be able to kill me if I do not help you save the dying person?

Of course I would.

By what right do you come to the ability to impose this manner of justice on others?

It is the group that matters, not the invididual. We are humans not cats.

[Jon_Irenicus]

It is the group that matters, not the invididual. We are humans not cats.

Prove it. We’re not ants either. I can’t believe the crap some people believe in. Devalue and dehumanize yourself all you wish. To that extent though your value drops to zero in my eyes, and you’re open game.

[Spideynw]

@liberty student

and frankly many of the children here would rather shout at you when you ask for an explanation, than share knowledge and try to show you the wisdom of praxeology.

Who exactly are you referring to?

@liberty student

I don’t understand why people are treating you so poorly, particularly since English is not your first language.

I have yet to see the guy make a valid argument. And I am not sure why you are defending him.

Nothing I have seen him post makes me believe he is in the slightest interested in understanding Austrian Economics. Many have referred him to articles to learn more, but I have not seen him make any attempt at learning more.