Government Required Health Insurance

I’m wondering what you all think about government required health insurance – or in other words, when employers are forced to choose health care plans for their employees.

Personally, I think this is extremely inefficient. Why force employers to make a choice regarding their employees health care when the employee is clearly better of making that choice for him/herself? I think that employees should take care of their own health insurance.

If this were the case, wouldn’t the employees benefit also from higher wages? Logically, if employers were no longer forced to pay for their employees health insurance, this would drive up the actual wages of employees, no?

I’m interested to hear your thoughts on the matter.

The requirements for people to purchase health insurance that the would be totalitarian future presidents are serving up is really a combination of two requirements: 1. Paid by employers or 2. Paid by the individuals themselves. Both are horrible and will only make health insurance and more generally health care more expensive and less consumer focused. The concept here is to stick it to those who need health insurance the least: That is young, healthy and active people and PRAY that this money makes it to the less young, less healthy and less active. Of course with any scheme where violence is the mechanism to enforce compliance there is always enforcement loss and inefficiency built into the system that only exacerbates the issue.

Let’s start with the requirement/mandate for employers to pay: This is modeled off of the Anti-Social In-Security System. It exists because of the tax system where employees save tax money getting health insurance as a “benefit” instead of cash.

The second is to require individuals to pay for health insurance. This is very ominous as it requires an enforcement mechanism, ready police force, to make sure those young, healthy and active folk buy into a program that they do not need nor want with the other end of folks skimming off of the healthy ones.

The problems as I see it with this required health bliss are: 1. Individuals under either requirement ARE NOT GOING to set by and let the unhealthy, old and inactive steal their money, they will do one of two things. That is over-use health care and bill as much as possible out of the system or they will find ways to cheat the system. I use the former method as I have an excellent employer provided health insurance package. Although tougher for individuals, people manage to cheat every enforcement system all the time, think taxes, speeding, zoning, etc through a myriad of means: fake marriage, theft, fraud, etc.2. It gives suppliers power over buyers. The other side to these required “benefits” is that suppliers of health insurance and health now have it made as they get access to the best customers who must under penalty of property appropriation, imprisonment or even violence to buy their products. 3. Another issue with forced insurance is that if the employee does not need the amount of health insurance then that is tough turkey for the employee. A better mechanism is to unwrite the insurance laws altogether and let individuals or groups purchase insurance freely. This would mean that suppliers of health care would have to price their services cheaper for those unable to get health insurance and more expensively for those who possess it. Also the most charitable nation to ever exist would as it has done in the past step up with religious or charity hospitals and clinics for those unable to pay.

100% agreed.

People forget that the more money in people’s hands → the more money donated. That is the problem I have with income tax/social security/socialized health care. Not only are they inefficient, but they are morally wrong because they are a form of forced charity.

Individuals should be able to choose to whom and what to donate – a free market for charity if you will. If I don’t want to donate my money so children of illegal immigrants have special privileges then I shouldn’t have to. If I don’t want to donate money to an overseas war that I don’t agree with, I shouldn’t have to. If I want to donate all my money to a charity hospital for children, then I should be able to.

The fact that the government takes a large portion of my money and decides, on my behalf, what to do with it is morally wrong.

It reduces wages in the long-run because employers simply subtract the cost from employees’ wages. It increases unemployment in the short-run because wages are sticky downward.

But it benefits insurance companies, harms small businesses, and people ignorant of economics think they get “free healthcare,”, which is why forcing employers to pay generally seems to be more popular in America than nationalizing health insurance.

I support nationalizing health insurance, but I don’t expect any argument I put forth here to be convincing.

I disagree, I think wages would increase in the long run. Imagine: The government no longer requires the employer to provide health care. Employer A will predictably stop providing it. The employees, because the value of the health care has been subtracted from their salaries, will demand higher wages. If employer A says no, the employees will turn to employer B, who is offering better wages.

Think about the supply and demand graph for labor. The price of labor includes wages AND benefits, such as health care. Before the government’s hypothetical decision to stop requiring health care, the equilibrium price of labor will be X. After the government’s decision, the equilibrium price of labor WILL STILL BE X. Because the employees are no longer given health care, this difference will be made up for with higher wages. If you disagree with my logic, please respond (because it could be flawed… I’m no expert).

Incorrect! It would hurt the current insurance companies by introducing competition into the insurance market. On the large scale, this would be beneficial to Americans because competition amongst companies is always a good thing for consumers. (Again, if you disagree, please respond…)

So blinded by ideology you can’t even see that above, I argued against government required health insurance.

Nothing you said contradicted anything I said and I don’t disagree with anything you just said, except the claim that "competition amongst companies is always a good thing."Government-imposed competition through anti-trust can be very bad, because some industries benefit from economies of scale and are naturally uncompetitive because mass production leads to lower costs, and therefore lower prices.

I disagree. Competition for consumers is good when it is among willing consumers - there is no value in “competition” which results from required purchases. I don’t see why requiring everyone to have health insurance is supposd to increase competition - what makes you think that after doing this, the government will eliminate the regulations that currently limit competition? Would that even be practical - require everyone to have insurance, then deregulate the industry so that insurers are not required to insure everyone in the same way - wouldn’t you create automatic criminals - people who get turned down by every insurance company, and so go to jail? Your argument here also looks pretty absurd if viewed from a bird’s eye view - you’re saying that forcing people to a buy a product hurts companies providing that product. Do you really want to maintain that?

The problem I see is that we have laws forcing hospitals to provide free care for anyone who is on the verge of death. Unless we do away with these laws, (which I’m sure most here would support, but that’s probably not politically possible) the public is forced to choose between either bearing the high expense of these emergency room visists or providing (or mandating) health insurance that will pay for cheaper, earlier care.

This is one of those “indefensible” stances among Libertarians.

It’s not possible, Harksaw, because it shows a complete lack of regard for the sanctity of human life, for the mere sake of making healthcare cheaper!

Hence, any person with the tiniest iota of humanism within them, that hasn’t been thoroughly suppressed through the doctrines of either Rothbard or Ayn Rand, would reject such a proposal outright.

This is the third post I have seen by you. Of them, two (including this one) were simply ad hominem attacks on anyone holding a particular position. If you are capable of presenting reasoned arguments, I’d urge you to begin whenever you are ready.

As for your claims here, you write that not forcing someone (at gunpoint) to provide free medical care to someone else shows a lack of regard for human life, and is not something a human can think. I have, for the last 10 years, spent at least 20 hours per week providing free medical care to poor people, and yet you have the nerve to call me, sight unseen, a person without the tiniest iota of humanism because I refuse to force you, at gunpoint, to pay for this voluntary service that I perform.

Does not the willingness to pull a gun in order to get what you want also display a lack of regard for the sanctity of life? You are willing to shoot me to make me take care of someone who will not pay me - I am to extend an effort on behalf of the health of an individual who will not extend any effort on behalf of his own health. The fact that the person being discussed here is on “the verge of death” is also worth considering, for two reasons - 1. It doesn’t always make sense to provide medical resources to someone who is beyond saving, particularly if there are no fees to be gained to recoup the loss. 2. If the patient is salvagable, many people, as you demonstrate, would be willing to voluntarily help. Yet here you are, insisting that there is no solution other than pulling a gun.

To require all to purchase health insurance violates the individual rights guaranteed in the Constitution. It’s unconstitutional, and therefore illegal. It also well illustrates the mind-set of the collectivists, who think it is just fine to coerce the whole community into their value system. This is the attitude of Nathyn. Commit violence in the name of humanitarianism, the old socialist ploy.

It also overlooks the fact that those forced to purchase this mainstream health insurance may not want to use the services it covers, but rather they may choose alternative medicine, which they’ll have to pay for themselves anyway. Nathyn doesn’t seem to mind that the money that could be used to feed a person and keep them healthy will now have to be spent on an insurance program that he forces the person into, and so they may become ill and die from lack of adequate nutrition because of his fascistic coercion. Pretty callous, I’d say.

It also completely ignores the person’s own responsibility for their condition. Why should someone who maintains their health, a yogi for instance, be forced to provide healthcare for someone who smokes tobacco, drinks alcohol, and is obese. Why should a vegetarian have to pay for the triple bypass that could have been avoided with vegetarian diet but now requires a surgery because the patient chose to eat meat? We already know by analysing the numbers, that tobacco addicts pay only about a quarter of what each packet of cigarettes ends up costing the taxpayer through publicly funded healthcare costs. Why should the 3/4 of the population who don’t smoke have to each cough up a dollar in taxes when a smoker buys a pack? Nathyn fails to mention this violence, or the wicked injustice of this fact.

So universal mandatory governmental health insurance programs, if the curse every comes about, should reflect the actuarial probabilities of disease given the person’s lifestyle.Those who lead unhealthy lives should pay through the nose. This will greatly cut U.S. annual healthcare costs.

However, I do see the possibility for government emergency rooms, or hospice services, under the “Inalienable Right to Life” clause in the Declaration.

We also know that extending government programs to some, but not all, is grossly unfair because it will shift the costs to those who are independent of the government, and end up bankrupting them also.

Another problem and maybe the most evil of forced insurance. That is there will be/are instances where the government insurance does not pay. So the person paying the insurance is having their very right to life violated as they must expend resources paying into something when they could use that money to pay for something they really need. This happens frequently in Canada and Britian. It is also an evil product of a totalitarian state.

Come in France, come enjoy our nationalized Social Security, the pride of our soviet country, each day more expensive for offering each day less. Ha, and i forgot to mention its ever growing debt, that our politicians try to clean by more taxes.

Bastiat, Economics Harmonies, written in 1850 This guy was so right about what would happen when the insurance was to be nationalized, I’m always struck when i read it.

Accusing someone of ideological bias or criticizing a certain set of beliefs is not a “personal attack.”

In the case of the government pulling a gun on you: This doesn’t necessarily show a lack of regard for the sanctity of life – if you deserved it, if they offer a means of recourse if it was unjustified, if the government uses violence as a last resort, and if they extend free healthcare to you to help you recover from any injury.

Tim, that’s a misquote. It was me that said that, not wgeary.

I have no healthcare, at the moment. French healthcare would be wonderful.

The comment was that anyone with an ounce of humanity would believe what you believe. The implication is that those who oppose what you believe are inhuman. This is not a personal attack?

From the context, we can figure some of this out: The gun is being pulled to force me to pay for your healthcare. Nope, can’t say I deserve it. The means of recourse, as always, is to ask the government if they were right or wrong in their actions - oddly, they tend to think they were right. Last resort - possibly, but that it was a last resort is not an adequate defense when the situation was avoidable to begin with. It is only a last recourse if one cannot imagine not robbing me to pay for other people’s healthcare. The last comment just shows the depths a statist will go to to justify absurdity - it’s ok to shoot people as long as you pay to fix them, using money stolen from other people?

What you mean is you have no healthcare that you don’t pay for, and you think it would be wonderful for thugs to rob other people to give you some for free. How humanitarian of you.

Allow me to comment on a couple of comments and then I’ll get to the topic.

Maybe I’m crazy or maybe I’m ignorant, but isn’t the problem that the proposed plan is supposed to address a result, in part, of higher prices (for health-care)? Wouldn’t everyone, poor and wealthy alike, be much better off with cheaper health-care? Thoughts?

If this be the case, which I believe is and will be, is it not impossible to deregulate the industry and make any kind of meaningful progress?

As for the original question, I am opposed for several reasons. First and foremost, I oppose it because of what billiot already said. Mandates require enforcement. Enforcement means the use of force. I imagine the most immediate penalties will be similar to the MA system (those being loss of tax exemptions and the addition of tax penalties). Naturally, there will be people who simply refuse to pay those penalties. Enter the enforcement agents.

I also oppose it because it is grossly unfair tax on the young and the healthy, as has already been explained. Even if we weren’t facing the changing demographics that exist today, mandatory health insurance would still be an unnecessary burden on people who chose healthy behaviors or didn’t need the insurance in the first place.

Yes sorry wgeary

Even at the minimal wage possible, what you’re asked for the Sécurité Sociale is far more that for a private insurance. But it’s solidarity, even the poor have to share their wealth with the poo… excuse-me, with themselves…

Technically speaking, it’s possible. But not politically
So i think we’ll have to wait for the state to bankrupt to get ride of this sovietic system.

Forcing someone to do anything against their will is immoral. Forcing an employer to provide health insurance is immoral. Forcing an employer to pay a certain wage is immoral. Here’s the deal: Employment is a voluntary contract. Health insurance is a voluntary contract.

If I, as an individual, take a job from an employer who is only willing to pay me $3.50 per hour what right does the government have to tell me that is wrong? I did not HAVE to take that job. I CHOSE to take that job. By my accepting a pay of $3.50 per hour I have voluntarily decided that my time is only worth $3.50 per hour. But the likelyhood of someone staying in business paying those wages is pretty slim. If it weren’t for minimum wage laws real wages would keep pace with inflation.

As for insurance, I don’t have health insurance. Not because I can’t afford it but because I don’t WANT it right now. The other aspect of that is the immoral act of stealing from our paychecks. Every time I get a paycheck $150 is stolen from it before I ever see it (no, I don’t make that much money). That’s $300 every month that is stolen from me by the government for income taxes and FICA taxes. That $300 a month could buy me the BEST private health insurance Blue Cross/Blue Shield offers or I could buy my employers health insurance plan, which is actually really good, and still have $200 a month left over to put into an IRA for my retirement. If you got rid of property taxes, all of the little nickle and dime taxes on internet access, phones, etc., etc. I’d have a lot more money left over that would be better used in the economy.

Reduce government spending, reduce taxes, allow me to opt out of Social Security and Medicare, and get rid of the income tax and I’d be set and so would you.

First of all, I misread your comment – my mistake. Secondly, your post was poorly written and ambiguous. When you said “it,” I thought you were referring to getting the government out of health insurance, but instead “it” mean government requiring health insurance. To say that I am “so blinded by ideology” is incorrect, insulting and trollish (not unlike many of your posts here).

Ron Paul 2008!