Probably a bit of a scary title to this thread, given current connotations of the word muslim never mind “fundamentalist.”
Nevertheless, I chanced to meet a self described fundamentalist muslim promoting his charity at a an islamic fair today(I went there for the free food[:P]). Our discussion turned economic and became quite passionate. He said he very much liked talking to me though, and seemed impressed with my knowledge of what I’ve learned of Economics so far(however benign that may actually be…).
He agreed wholeheartedly with me that money should be gold or silver, and not paper money(of course my true position is that money should be what the people decide to use as a medium of exchange in the absence of coercion; that usually happens to be gold or silver), but rejected interest as exploitative and immoral. I tried to explain to him about time preference, but I don’t think i came across very convincing.
In any case, he asked for my email and said he very much wanted to keep in touch and would be open to reading any books I could recommend to him (in addition he recommended me to read the Quran… maybe I will after I get through all the other tomes I want to finish, though I doubt it will convince me any more than the Bible didn’t).
What kind of books or materials do you think would provide the best introduction for this fellow? I’m tempted to definitely cite Lilburne’s comics, though what do you think really hits home about time preference and interest? Admittedly, what worries me slightly is that I think he came to his position on gold just because the Quran says so rather than due to any economic reasoning, so this may be a fruitless waste of time, especially since I think he accepts the notion of Sharia law imposed on others(guess it’s part and parcel of being a statist).
Seems to me that the best way to introduce him to austro-libertarian reasoning would be to recommend him a book/lecture/article on the gold standard.
By doing so you play it safe. You already know he agrees with the conclusion (that gold/silver should be money and not paper) so it will be easier for him to focus on the reasoning behind this conclusion.
Current connotation of Muslim? Doesn’t the word mean “slave to God”, or something?
Unless you can “convert” the guy from fundamentalist Islam, then I don’t think there’s anything you can do short of finding some Islamic scholar to reinterpret the Koran so it says interest isn’t evil. If the guy wants to remain true to his word about being fundamentalist, then he can’t accept teachings from a secular source if they contradict his holy scriptures. Here’s hoping, for his sake, that he’s not as fundamentalist a “slave to God” as he claims.
I’m sure that might be the case, he’s not the first person to try either. He even invited me to come over to his house for dinner; I think he liked our common ground on sound currency. To be fair, I’d be interested in seeing another austro-libertarian.
If he is Islamic, the religion forbids usury, so that may be a tough sell. You could however talk to him about the “Arab golden age”, which had the most advanced and free first market economy known at the time. You could also bring up intellectuals such as Ibn Khaldun, or other philosophers from the period, who were kind of a “proto” free economist. They had the most advanced philosophy on economics at the time.
The Quran doesn’t tell anyone to use Gold, you’re just assuming thats how he came to that position. No reason to be pessimistic just because he’s religious.. Islamic society does have a history of using Gold and silver as money though. http://www.minaret.org/OLD/MONETARY.HTM
Theres a lot of misconceptions regarding Islam and the Quran- Muslims themselves have more misconceptions than anyone else.(Being Muslim and involved in the community myself). If this guy accepts the Quran- then he wouldn’t want any type of “Sharia law” imposed on others because the Quran explicity bans forcing anything on anyone despite the actions of “Muslim” states around the world.
“[42:48] But if they turn aside, We have not sent you as a watcher over them; on you is only to deliver (the message)…”
" [ 88:21-88:22] So remind. You are only a reminder. You are not a dictator over them."
In regards to interest, it is generally accepted by the majority of Muslims that interest is prohibited, but as we all know, the majority deciding something doesn’t mean its right. When looking at the Quran- you’ll see that the only context in which usury is mentioned and prohibited when it is mentioning charity for the poor, so from my understanding of the concept of “Al-Riba”, its only forbidden when there is a charity case. It isn’t interest that is forbidden, but usury- akin to the types of loans the mafia would give out and then try to justify it as “business” where the collateral is usually the debtors life.
I don’t know this man but it does seem like many muslims won’t accept something until a “Scholar” says its true, and I don’t know how far a non-muslim can go in convincing him that if he studies the Quran on his own, he’ll find everything very compatible with AE and libertarianism as I have. But it wouldn’t hurt to at least bring these questions up.
one “fundamentalist” muslim can be very different from another “fundamentalist” muslim, so as long as hes open to learn I think it’ll be fine. Just don’t push to change his beliefs in a day- people have a bit of a gut reaction when they’re challenged to resist, but leaving the door open to learn is what works.
IIRC, Islamic bankers have devised a variety of workarounds that follow the letter of the law but basically amount to a payment of interest - things like a purchase immediately followed by a sale with a different payment structure, “gratuities” given to investors, and so forth.
Shows you how sincere some - if not most - religious people really are. I mean, if you’re looking for loopholes, you’re basically trying to evade the law. That doesn’t say much about a person’s faith if the law thus circumvented is supposed to be god-given.
I don’t know if Ibn Sina has anything on economics, I’ll check my archives to see if he does. I do know there are many other Middle Aged scholars who contributed to economic thought, I’ll see if I can try to dig up a few more sources if you want.
The Islamic world of the Middle Ages seems to have a much better claim to the roots of capitalism and economics than Spain (which seems a bit like a manufactured idea). It would be useful and cool, I think, to talk to Muslims about Capitalism within the framework of their culture, with people they would be more ready to relate to.
Thanks, I didn’t know that. I’m beginning to think someone like yourself would be far better suited at engaging this man than I, given your knowledge of Islam. I must enquire: I have heard from crtics of Islam that the peaceful verses like the ones you have quoted are contradicted by the more violent and militaristic verses from the latter half of the Quran after the prohet’s pilgrimage to Mecca. They claim that these verses abrogate the earlier verses, is any of this true?
When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, “Thou art but a forger”: but most of them understand not.
Surah 2:106:
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
It would appear that it is true that the Quran allows that sort of thing. It is like any other religious text, full of contradictions and false magic. Muhammad was more clever though, and added a mechanism to make sure that the contradictions don’t discourage one from still believing his text. See, Allah is just giving us something better! But there are still fundamentalists who do not agree. Let’s take a look it this gentleman’s article, entitled: “Abrogation, the biggest lie against the Quran.” Rather strong feelings he has.
What is abrogated, I do not know, and do not really care to know. As all followers of religion, they will see what they want anyways even if it says to go on murderous rampages with pre-pubescent child brides (Aisha); most Muslims would never do such a thing.
Having read this today, I think I might just send him this. Indeed, I might just make it THE article I introduce people to libertarianism with from now on.
Go on murderous rampages? It doesn’t say to do that. Everytime the Quran mentions war it is always in reference to defense. But of course as all people with strong negative feelings about religion- you will see what you want as long as you can tarnish its name. But that’s ok, that’s your thing.
I find it funny that the people who have the strongest feelings about insisting that Muhammad had sex with a young girl named aisha(whos reference can only be found in hadith, nearly all of which are unsubstantiated) or that Quran calls for us to go on rampages killing everyone don’t even care when references are brought up as to why they aren’t true. So in that case, why do you even care?
That article you provided regarding Abrogation being a lie is what I conclusively agree with- because real understanding of the Arabic and the context of the verses will always lead to you to understanding that abrogation cannot co-exist with Quran. Abrogation is a great tool for people to add in and remove what they feel like into the belief system- something that is very explicitly rejected in Quran. That guy doesn’t just give his strong feelings about it, but actually explains the Suras- although I don’t think you care enough to read it which is fine. The point is that the abrogation isn’t regarding Quran- but the different scriptures. So what may have been forbidden in the time of the Torah is now made lawful in Quran. But you can always go right past that point and throw in your own 2 cents. But since you don’t really CARE to know…why are you throwing in your 2 cents? I don’t get your angle.
But in the end I can see how you reach your conclusions- as most muslims themselves have the poorest understanding of Quran.
Any reference to fighting in Quran is always regarding defense. Critics don’t like taking the Quran as a whole and want to chop it up. lol then other muslims will go and agree with abrogation and reaffirm their criticism. Oh man it sure gets tough trying to actually get out what Islam is about.
