with government: Poor, without government: Poor.
*Note, I’m not a statist
That isn’t an explanation, and it’d be more like: before - abysmal, after - slightly improved. Relative to other African countries of a comparable nature, Somalia is better off.
To be honest, where is it THAT much worse. I can think of two places, Sudan, and Zimbabwe. Will things get better? I don’t know, we’ll have to see, it will be a good experiment to see if anarchism is as relevant as Marxism, or if some more industrialized countries should give it a shot.
Like some said before quinn, just because no one could gain complete control, it was driven into anarchy. Even so, statistics prove that it is better than before. Give it time. The U.S. is falling apart, and has been driven further into a recession since the collapse, but we are still an economic powerhouse. While big government is making us fail, Somalia and their anarchy is helping to improve them. They are still poor, but they will go from a 3rd worl peripheral country to a powerhouse overnight, just how the U.S. didn’t become poor overnight from big government. We are still a core nation but we are declining, they are still poor but they are improving. You can not just look at statistics of their GDP and say it does not work, you must compare Somalian society now to Somalian society before.
I don’t think Somalia will ever be a powerhouse (No offense), but I have no idea if it will improve. If I see it work, yeah, I might have a change of thought, and I understand it will be a long process and we’ll just have to wait and see what happens to Somalia.
Logically impossible assertion
It is contingent.
It is working if facts are understood.
It is already improving, too late.
Watch the video I linked earlier in the thread. I admit I don’t know much about what is happening in Somalia but that video includes a good lecture. What sources do you have to make these assertions of yours? That would help. Unless you’re living in Somalia or have visited there for an extended period of time, I doubt you’re able to make these assertions without mainstream media propaganda, unfortunately.
Very good video, thanks for the link.
Can someone please explain to me why Somalia is considered “anarchist”?
"Following the civil war the Harti and Tanade clans declared a self-governing state in the northeast, which took the name Puntland, but maintained that it would participate in any Somali reconciliation to form a new central government. Then in 2002, Southwestern Somalia, comprising Bay, Bakool, Jubbada Dhexe (Middle Juba), Gedo, Shabeellaha Hoose (Lower Shabele) and Jubbada Hoose (Lower Juba) regions of Somalia declared itself autonomous. Although initially the instigators of this, the Rahanweyn Resistance Army, which had been established in 1995, was only in full control of Bay, Bakool and parts of Gedo and Jubbada Dhexe, they quickly established the de facto autonomy of Southwestern Somalia.
Although conflict between Hasan Muhammad Nur Shatigadud and his two deputies weakened the Rahanweyn militarily from February 2006, the Southwest became central to the TFG based in the city of Baidoa. Shatigadud became Finance Minister, his first deputy Adan Mohamed Nuur Madobe became Parliamentary Speaker and his second deputy Mohamed Ibrahim Habsade became Minister of Transport. Shatigadud also held the Chairmanship of the Rahanwein Traditional Elders’ Court.
In 2004, the TFG met in Nairobi, Kenya and published a charter for the government of the nation.[84][85] The TFG capital is presently in Baidoa. Meanwhile Somalia was one of the many countries affected by the tsunami which struck the Indian Ocean coast following the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, destroying entire villages and killing an estimated 300 people. In 2006, Somalia was deluged by torrential rains and flooding that struck the entire Horn of Africa affecting 350,000 people.[86] The inter-clan rivalry continued in 2006 with the declaration of regional autonomy by the state of Jubaland, consisting of parts of Gedo, Jubbada Dhexe, and the whole of Jubbada Hoose. Barre Adan Shire Hiiraale, chairman of the Juba Valley Alliance, who comes from Galguduud in central Somalia is the most powerful leader there. Like Puntland this regional government did not want full statehood, but some sort of federal autonomy.
Conflict broke out again in early 2006 between an alliance of Mogadishu warlords known as the Alliance for the Restoration of Peace and Counter-Terrorism (or “ARPCT”) and a militia loyal to the Islamic Courts Union (or “I.C.U.”), seeking to institute Sharia law in Somalia. Social law changes, such as the forbidding of chewing khat,[87] were part of moves by the ICU to change behaviours and impose strict social morals. It was widely reported that soccer playing was being banned, as well as viewing of broadcasts of soccer games,[88] but there were also reports of the ICU itself denying any such bans.[89] The Islamic Courts Union was led by Sheikh Sharif Ahmed. When asked if the ICU plans to extend its control to the rest of Somalia, Sheikh Ahmed responded in an interview: “Land is not our priority. Our priority is the people’s peace, dignity and that they could live in liberty, that they could decide their own fate. That is our priority. Our priority is not land; the people are important to us.”[90]
Somalia at the height of I.C.U. power, December 2006
Several hundred people, mostly civilians caught in the crossfire, died during this conflict. Mogadishu residents described it as the worst fighting in more than a decade. The Islamic Courts Union accused the U.S. of funding the warlords through the Central Intelligence Agency and supplying them with arms in an effort to prevent the Islamic Courts Union from gaining power. The United States Department of State, while neither admitting nor denying this, said the U.S. had taken no action that violated the international arms embargo of Somalia. A few e-mails describing covert illegal operations by private military companies in breach of U.N. regulations have been reported[91] by the UK Sunday newspaper The Observer.
By early June 2006 the Islamic Militia had control of Mogadishu, following the Second Battle of Mogadishu, and the last A.R.P.C.T. stronghold in southern Somalia, the town of Jowhar, then fell with little resistance. The remaining A.R.P.C.T. forces fled to the east or across the border into Ethiopia and the alliance effectively collapsed.
The Ethiopian-supported Transitional Government then called for intervention by a regional East African peacekeeping force. The I.C.U. meanwhile were fiercely opposed to foreign troops—particularly Ethiopians—in Somalia.[92] claiming that Ethiopia, with its long history as an imperial power including the occupation of Ogaden, seeks to occupy Somalia, or rule it by proxy. Meanwhile the I.C.U. and their militia took control of much of the southern half of Somalia, normally through negotiation with local clan chiefs rather than by the use of force.
However, the Islamic militia stayed clear of areas close to the Ethiopian border, which had become a place of refuge for many Somalis including the Transitional Government itself, headquartered in the town of Baidoa. Ethiopia said it would protect Baidoa if threatened. On September 25, 2006, the I.C.U. moved into the southern port of Kismayo, the last remaining port held by the transitional government.[93] Ethiopian troops entered Somalia and seized the town of Buur Hakaba on October 9, and later that day the I.C.U. issued a declaration of war against Ethiopia.[94]
Kismayo, one of Somalia’s leading ports.
On 1 November 2006, peace talks between the Transitional Government and the ICU broke down. The international community feared an all-out civil war, with Ethiopian and rival Eritrean forces backing opposing sides in the power-struggle.[95] Fighting erupted once again on 21 December 2006 when the leader of ICU, Sheikh Hassan Dahir Aweys said: “Somalia is in a state of war, and all Somalis should take part in this struggle against Ethiopia”, and heavy fighting broke out between the Islamic militia on one side and the Somali Transitional Government allied with Ethiopian forces on the other.[96]
In late December 2006, Ethiopia launched airstrikes against Islamic troops and strong points across Somalia. Ethiopian Information Minister Berhan Hailu stated that targets included the town of Buurhakaba, near the Transitional Government base in Baidoa. An Ethiopian jet fighter strafed Mogadishu International Airport (now Aden Adde International Airport), without apparently causing serious damage but prompting the airport to be shut down. Other Ethiopian jet fighters attacked a military airport west of Mogadishu.[97][98] Ethiopian Prime Minister Meles Zenawi then announced that his country was waging war against the ICU to protect his country’s sovereignty. “Ethiopian defence forces were forced to enter into war to the protect the sovereignty of the nation and to blunt repeated attacks by Islamic courts terrorists and anti-Ethiopian elements they are supporting,” he said.[99][100]
Days of heavy fighting followed as Ethiopian and government troops backed by tanks and jets pushed against Islamic forces between Baidoa and Mogadishu. Both sides claimed to have inflicted hundreds of casualties, but the Islamic infantry and vehicle artillery were badly beaten and forced to retreat toward Mogadishu. On 28 December 2006, the allies entered Mogadishu after Islamic fighters fled the city. Prime Minister Ali Mohammed Ghedi declared that Mogadishu had been secured, after meeting with local clan leaders to discuss the peaceful hand-over of the city.[101] Yet as of April 2008, the Transitional Federal Government and its Ethiopian allies still face frequent attacks from an Islamic insurgency.
The Islamists retreated south, towards their stronghold in Kismayo, fighting rearguard actions in several towns. They abandoned Kismayo, too, without a fight, claiming that their flight was a strategic withdrawal to avoid civilian casualties, and entrenched around the small town of Ras Kamboni, at the southernmost tip of Somalia and on the border with Kenya. In early January, the Ethiopians and the Somali government attacked, resulting in the Battle of Ras Kamboni, and capturing the Islamic positions and driving the surviving fighters into the hills and forests after several days of combat.
On January 9, 2007, the United States openly intervened in Somalia by sending Lockheed AC-130 gunships to attack ICU positions in Ras Kamboni. Dozens were killed and by then the ICU were largely defeated. During 2007 and 2008, new Islamic militant groups organized, and continued to fight against transitional government Somali and Ethiopian official troops. They recovered effective control of large portions of the country. Ethiopian forces retreated in 2009. The ICU no longer exists as an organized political group, and is now part of the Transitional Federal Government.
On December 29, 2008, Abdullahi Yusuf Ahmed announced before a united parliament in Baidoa his resignation as President of Somalia. In his speech, which was broadcast on national radio, Yusuf expressed regret at failing to end the country’s seventeen year conflict as his government had mandated to do.[102] He also blamed the international community for its failure to support the government, and said that the speaker of parliament, Aden “Madobe” Mohamed, would succeed him in office per the charter of the Transitional Federal Government.[103] On January 31, 2009, Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed was elected as president at the Kempinski hotel in Djibouti.[104]
In 2009, the Islamic Courts Union was absorbed into the Transitional Federal Government, along with the Alliance for the Re-liberation of Somalia, a collection of moderate Islamist groups. The Islamists were awarded with 200 seats in parliament. Former Prime Minister Nur Hassan Hussein of the Transitional Federal Government and Sharif Sheikh Ahmed also signed a power sharing deal in Djibouti that was brokered by the United Nations.
According to the deal, Ethiopian troops were to withdraw from Somalia, giving their bases to the transitional government, African Union (AU) peacekeepers and moderate Islamist groups led by the ARS. Following the Ethiopian withdrawal, the transitional government expanded its parliament to include the opposition and elected Sheikh Ahmed as its new president on January 31, 2009. Sheikh Ahmed then appointed Omar Abdirashid Ali Sharmarke, the son of slain former President Abdirashid Ali Sharmarke, as the nation’s new Prime Minister."
This one’s always bugged me.I mean if somalia is what we believe in and statism is a failure too then we’re screwed both ways and might as well give up all political thinking now.
My thoughts on why somalia is not an example of the anarchy we believe in are
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though the somalia’s have the Xeer which rejects taxation ,respect for rights and private property isn’t nearly widespread enough.
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Somalia is a tribal society and no where near industrial or slightly individualistic.As far as I know property is often held in common.
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Somalia was poor with government and never even had the chance to develop slightly due to continually excessive tyranny.
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The U.N. keeps trying to impose a state on them (the U.S. has been involved.See the film black hawk down)which many have said they do not want- this causes violence itself . Somalia isnt completely anarchy since they have a weak functioning central state now after about 5 years of actual anarchy.
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No everything about Somalia is a complete failure.Telecommunications and airlines are flourishing.
so to break it down the causes of it’s failure are : poverty, lack of extensive respect for property rights, pre industrial economy,minimal division of labour,and imposed weak state
you must also remember the media and the other ‘court intellectuals’ will distort the picture of somalia now -when it has a state- and during the real years of anarchy ,because the political elites do not want people to think anarchy is great or can work.They will just flat out deny it.
Let me demonstrate how you get GDP numbers in a region with with no personal finance reporting. sticks head up ass and latches on to something
I don’t recall a Rothbardian legal code (an important prerequisite for ancap working) ever having been established in Somalia.
Somalia was a horrible (probably worse) place to live before it went to “anarchy” anyway.
Having lived in Africa for twenty years this video makes some great points. Even one of the wealthiest and most industrial nation on the continent, South Africa, can’t even compare with Somalia in terms of low telecommunications costs. I’d hazard a guess that violent crime in SA is also far worse and yet the citzenry is forced to pay vastly more for “protection”. So much for the state protecting people…
I probably wouldn’t be using Somalia as a good example of Capitalism in action. Somalia is a basket-case, where the rule of law has been done away with. This usually happens whenever you get a tyrannical government ousted by revolution or foreign invasion - you get people that have no training in governing themselves being thrust into a position where they have to govern, not just themselves, but the entire place they live, and people that have lived under some form of tyranny are not likely to wanna set up a democracy or something where the rule of law is king. You might as well use Iraq, Afghanistan, or multi-culturalism in the former Yugoslavia as good examples as well, if Somalia is considered a worthwhile place. I would not do business in Somalia, and I doubt anybody here on this list, or any other member of the Mises Institute, would in its current state. That’s why there are no Fund Managers anywhere in the world that have a ‘Third-World Managed Fund’, with holdings in Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, & The Sudan, and I wouldn’t invest a red razoo in it if there was. Here’s a quick tip: it’d be a good idea to drop Somalia as an example of laissez-faire, Austrian economics in action…be a quick-fire way to increase support for the UN intervention into such places!
Just quickly, Anarchy, if it is to be understood in the vernacular, is destructive of social order. No society can long stand that advocates such a policy for society, and commerce can definitely not function. So don’t confuse Libertarian economics with this thing called ‘Anarchy’. Anarchy denies the rule of Law, and without the rule of Law, you cannot have negative sanctions against lawbreakers. But of course, if you can’t have negative sanctions against lawbreakers, then such positive sanctions as profits on entrepreneurial effort are meaningless as well if they can be taken away by lawbreakers without fear of negative sanctions like restitution or death. When people talk about Anarchy, they mean it in the individual sense, but each individual is subject to the wishes of those around them. The Anarchist, to be a consistent anarchist, cannot be bothered with the world outside himself. To do so is to subject himself to the wishes of others. I keep saying this: Anarchy is Jean-Paul Sartre, and the Marquis de Sade, not Murray Rothbard. People that wanna be anarchists should busy themselves reading ‘Being & Nothingness’ or ‘The 120 Days of Sodom’.
Basically, unless I misunderstand the use of the term, the whole idea about anarchy needs to be put down like the rabid dog it is. Anarchy is Iraq, mob rule, and, eventually, totalitarianism - witness the French Revolution, and its cry of ‘No God, No Law’…they gave the world Napoleon in its stead. Yeah, thanx for that…
I am pretty sure Rothbard is a self proclaimed supporter of anarcho-capitalism. There is a difference between that and completely anarchy. In For a New Liberty, it explains how law, police, infrastructure, schools, justice system, and more would run privately with less corruption and better efficiency. Your misconception of anarchy is ridiculous. You are comparing places that have had central government dictatorships to anarchy, which is completely antithetical. Also, you are assuming that any anarchist state will be chaos an a competition for power. This is true without social order. Like I said, there are ways to keep order and enforce it without government, and Rothbard explains them, so I strongly suggest you actually red For a New Liberty because you seem to be unaware of his views. AnCap = Efficieny = Order = Success = Safety = Liberty = Perfection. What else could one want?
Did you watch the above-linked video? It is simply not true that “the rule of law has been done away with” in Somalia. If anything, Somalia actually has a very sophisticated and nuanced legal system from which we Westerners could learn a great deal. The only obstacle in this regard is Western conceit which identifies rule of law with rule of Western law.
This is democracy-myth clap-trap. Somalis governed themselves just fine before colonial rule was imposed on them by the Brits and Italians. Since escaping colonial rule and throwing off the tyrannical Barre regime which filled the “power vacuum” after Somali independence from colonial rule, Somalis returned to their traditional law systems. The interference of the UN through the auspices of the AU has done a great deal to undermine the rule of law in southern Somalia in Mogadishu, Kasmayo and the surrounding regions.
As Powell explains in the video, the “current state” of Somalia isn’t the problem so much as the difficulty of the customary legal system in integrating outsiders (foreigners). He points out that 7 of 17 fuel stations in a typical Somali city (not Mogadishu, he chose a “representative” city) have buried fuel tanks, which indicates that the owners are sufficiently confident of their property rights that they are willing to take the risk of making their assets immobile. Powell contrasts this with regions with less secure property rights, where fuel is typically dispensed directly from trucks or 55-gallon drums.
Your lumping these countries together is bizarre. Is there some similarity between them besides their poverty and their lack of white inhabitants (and that they are all recent targets of Pentagon aggression)?
Somalia is not an “example” of anything, it is what it is. The economic consequences of Somalia’s legal system are very interesting because Somalia’s legal system is very unique in the modern world.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Clayton -
Oh so we don’t know? Then how do we know things are improving? Also, if some of the members of this board thinks Somalia is soo great, why don’t they move there? Be honest with yourselves, it’s an impoverished third world nation, and will likely stay that way.
Did you watch the video?
I don’t care to, if you are talking about that 1.5 hour video you posted. Is Somalia even a “Stateless society”, they have a president, Sharif Ahmed…
“I reject what you say even though I don’t know what it is you’re saying or to what it is that you refer.”