I'm an aesthetic fundamentalist - and why you should care

OK, let’s start with a brief bit of background. I was raised a religious conservative. After going to college, my beliefs began to moderate a bit as my perspective widened but I was still a religious conservative in every sense. With the advent of the Bush era, I teetered on the precipice of neoconservatism and briefly (to my eternal shame) openly espoused the use of torture and other immoral behaviors in the maintenance of the United States’ de facto empire. Then, I read Thomas Sowell’s book Basic Economics and my intellectual compass began a process of reversal. First, I realized that economic intervention was redundant and unnecessary at best, but usually destructive and impoverishing. Then, I began to wonder whether the government’s other interventions into society are necessary or, perhaps, also destructive. I began to look online and stumbled into the writings of Mises, Rothbard, Hoppe and the other Austrian luminaries. My intellectual compass swung clear round and I was briefly an almost pure anti-state Rothbardian, then briefly flirted with across-the-board anti-authoritarianism. But this is Utopian territory and I quickly outgrew this and returned to earth moving to a more mature Hoppean view.

At this point, I began to strike out on my own and I began to feel that libertarian theory unfairly singles violence out as what is wrong with the world. This road leads to Longite de facto pacifism which I find Utopian and untenable. So, I turned to law and began to look at libertarian legal theory. Here, I came across the idea of common or customary law and the distinction between justifiable violence and aggression. Things were making more sense to me but then I began to wonder how it is that our legal systems are so out of touch with the origins of law in custom and non-aggression. Blaming it on “the State” is pointless if you want to understand why it is the State has managed to get away with bringing about the state of affairs we are in today.

This brings me to my most recent revelations that law rests on an even deeper foundation of human moral sense. Laws which grossly violate the prevailing moral sense do not last long and long-standing laws attain their longevity precisely because they coincide with the prevailing moral sense. This is an obvious point but understanding how it relates to the libertarian ideal of non-aggression is not trivial. In fact, this point about human morality explains how aggressive laws such as the drug prohibition laws come to be - precisely because the power interests in drug enforcement have succeeded in striking a chord in the prevailing moral sense… the 10,000 innocent deaths per year as a result of enforcement of drug laws is justifiable because people generally agree that drug use is “bad”. There is also a psychological component of resignation to the collateral damage… if the police were trying to do what is right and, in the course of doing so, accidents happen, they cannot be held responsible as if they were acting maliciously. This is, of course, muddle-headed thinking but these are precisely the logical steps along which most human minds proceed in accepting the drug prohibition narrative. For by-standers who are not the direct victims of police action, intent is a deciding factor and since the vast majority of us are by-standers, our opinions outweigh the feelings of the direct victims.

So, this means that what people in a society believe about right and wrong is hugely important in regards to the legal and social order which can emerge. The aggressive State apparatus is only possible precisely because most people hold a certain complex of beliefs about right and wrong. Furthermore, the State itself is constrained by the moral ideas which people hold… we can see this whenever the government is forced to scale back its ambitions either in response to public outrage or a lack of sufficient popular support for its initiatives. This means that moral beliefs are not solely a function of State brainwashing and I reject the Rothbardian hypothesis that the State is primarily responsible for the moral beliefs that make its existence possible. Certainly, the State expends its resources to encourage the myths which secure its existence (e.g. the Hobbesian myth, per Hoppe) and discourage the ideas that endager it (e.g. most of classical liberal philosophy) but I think the historical evidence of the massive struggle of the State to actualize its own goals goes to show that its power to alter minds exists only within narrow confines.

What is more powerful than brainwashing is how our brains are wired to begin with and Nature - not the State - has wired our brains. Evolutionary psychologists are exploring the human moral sense and its roots in the ancestral environment and what they are finding is that our moral sense is highly rational and adaptive to that environment (>10kya) but maladaptive to the rapidly changing modern environment. And I suspect this is precisely where the State exists, in that gap between our evolved moral sense that was well suited to our primitive existence in the sweeping grasslands of Africa and the realities of the modern world. We can see this very clearly in the Europe-centered global wars of the 20th century where governments brazenly appealed to primitive tribal sentiments in their populations to drum up support for military adventurism. The actions of the European powers, the United States, Russia and Japan resulted in wanton destruction of human life and property on an unprecedented scale yet the popular support for most of these actions was high.

The level of tyranny achievable by the State is not everywhere equal and we can conclude from this that the limits to the power of the State are not limited to our hardwired morality. Moral sentiments can spread through family, community, religion and other means. Therefore, it is possible that more moral societies (societies in which tyranny is more restricted) are possible.

But what is morality? This is where my views are likely to become contentious. Morality is an expression of aesthetic taste regarding the actions of humans. To say “giving to the poor is good” means that I derive satisfaction from reading about, seeing or participating in giving to the poor and this satisfaction is a passive satisfaction, like aesthetic satisfaction. Satisfaction of a moral ideal is unlike the satisfaction of consumption because consumption is the attainment of an individual end. Satisfaction of a moral ideal is often the result of the action of others and, therefore, cannot be an end. Satisfaction of a moral ideal with respect to one’s own actions is more complicated because it is intertwined with the means an individual chooses to attain his ends but I am not concerned with this aspect of morality here. But the satisfication of a moral ideal with respect to the actions of others is more like listening to music or observing a painting. My view is that the internal preference or dispreference which is experienced in reaction to a piece of art (aesthetic taste) and the internal preference or dispreference which is experienced in reaction to the behavior of others (morality) are of the same species.

This implies that the consequences of people’s aesthetic faculty are immense… a society with bad taste and a society with bad morals suffer from the same root problem. It also implies that moral nihilism and aesthetic nihilism are more closely linked than just by analogy to one another, they are both species of the same idea. Consider this “Piano Concerto” by the modern composer John Cage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SmXNDYlNJM

You only need to listen to the first 30 seconds or so to get an idea of the how the whole piece goes. Such “music” is not merely an expression of poor taste, it is actually an expression of moral nihilism. Noise is music is noise. Wrong is right is wrong. It’s all the same. Any distinction between beauty and ugliness is purely in the mind of the observer and is, therefore, arbitrary. Any distinction between right and wrong is arbitrary for the same reason.

And this is how I’ve become an aesthetic fundamentalist. Not only is Cage’s “Piano Concerto” not music, it is pretentious, self-gratifying shit. For a human being, beauty and ugliness are not arbitrary because there is something that it means to be a human being (this idea is similar to, yet importantly different from, Rothbard’s idea of human nature), there is certain wiring in our brain that predisposes us to prefer symmetry, variation on a theme and the elements of rhythm, melody and harmony that most music exhibits. These preferences are purely subjective (this is where I differ from Rothbard) which is why pathological cases are possible… there are people who really like John Cage’s music. Morality, likewise, is not arbitrary for the same reasons our tastes in music, visual art or even food are not arbitrary. Nature wired us to recoil in disgust at certain actions of others and to react with admiration towards other actions of others. There are the sociopaths who really do not experience ordinary moral reactions and some of them slice people open for fun and others go into politics. Morality, like art, is subjective but not arbitrary.

On a related note, I think the link between the arts and morality goes to help explain why the world’s most powerful religions are so concerned about art - what is permissible, what is impermissible, what should be subsidized and what should be suppressed.

In conclusion, I think that to stop at criticizing the monopoly on force and legalized aggression is to stop far short of the root problem. Buttressing the modern State are perversions in our legal system and buttressing these are perversions in our moral sense and aesthetic sense. Hence, promotion of good morals and good taste are central to the project of tearing down the State and correcting the many ills of modern society. The Renaissance in the arts and humanities came first, classical liberalism came later. The National Endowment for the Arts, the subsidy of arts programs in public schools and universities, the preoccupation of the religious leaders in the world’s largest religious organizations with what people see on television or hear on the radio… these are all vehicles for the perversion of good taste and good morals. The attack on the arts began in earnest in the early 20th century. Its effects can be seen everywhere from the dull grey prison-like concrete architecture of the modernists to Lady Gaga. Gone are the Vermeers and the Wagners. The most powerful people in the world - the Pope, European monarchs, David Rockefeller, Ted Turner, etc. - spend a great deal of time, energy and money in the arts and influencing organizations which spend public money on the arts. Do you really think they are all just big art buffs?

Clayton -

Addendum

I’ve spent some time thinking about how bad morals contribute to the existence of the State. Perhaps the most important way they contribute is through partiality or dual morality. Partiality is the evaluation of the morality of an action based on who did it. If John killed Peter, it’s wrong but if Bob killed Peter, it’s OK. This is a partial moral assessment. The State cannot exist without dual morality. If John takes your wallet by force, it’s wrong, but if the King takes your wallet by force, it’s OK.

We are all partial towards ourselves as an expression of our own natural self-interest. We tend not to judge ourselves by the same standard by which we judge others. Family members tend to be partial toward one another and this is an expression of genetic self-interest. More generally, tribes and clans typically exhibit a high degree of partiality towards their own and this highlights that dual morality is tribal morality or primitive morality. The State’s very existence crucially relies on suppression of univocal morality (Golden Rule, impartial morals) and maintenance of tribal, dual morality. You can see this very clearly in the carefully cultivated “American exceptionalism”, for example.

The alternative to tribal morality is the Golden Rule. I call this “actor-independent ethics”. In other words, a non-tribal ethical system is one in which all the rules can be expressed without reference to the identity or office of the actor. I like to think about the problem in terms of aesthetics. A non-tribal aesthetic is one which makes its assessment without reference to the identity of the author - a good painting is a good painting no matter who painted it. A crappy work of music is crappy regardless of who composed it.

When applied to the State, it is clear that univocal morality would result in its immediate annihilation. If every moral rule either applied to everybody or nobody, it would be impossible to collect taxes, arrest and imprison people, invade countries, and so on. So, the terminus of good morality - in my view - is univocal morality, that is, actor-independent ethics. And the promotion of good taste requires multi-culturalism… true multi-culturalism, not the fake, forced-association variety promulgated by the State’s paid shills. True multi-culturalism is the application of the universal principles of aesthetics to art, music, food and every other object of aesthetic assessment without regard to the identity of its author, without partisanship and without partiality.

Clayton -

The “why you should care” part should have been in the first paragraph.

I agree with a good portion of what you have stated but I do disagree on a couple of points.

You mention that the state (and religion) has a limited range on how much it can influence people away from what is ‘natural’. However, I would contend that this is only true if constrained by time. I believe that given enough time the state (due to superior propaganda capabilities compared to any competitor) can convince people that anything is morally ‘right’. I also believe that the plasticity of the people whose morals you are trying to sway significantly influences how far they can be influenced. If you catch them very young, as religion does, you can have a significant influence on their behavior (this can also be seen in education by the state). I think the places where you see people stopping the state from doing something “wrong” is when the state tries to sway the people’s morals too quickly.

Also, if you take too extreme of a stance up front there will be a significant amount of counter-propaganda, possibly more than the state can fight against. However, if you inch the population little by little you can distribute the counter-propaganda over time and succeed in the same ultimate goal.

You also mention that humans are morally hard wired and while I agree that there is some psychological evidence towards this, I believe that morality is very plastic and easily changed. That is to say, while humans may have a certain moral predisposition, these are not permanent. You gave a perfect example in your introduction where you indicated that you were raised with a certain set of moral beliefs but over time this set of beliefs changed. On top of the ability to change our moral perspective I don’t think there is anything bounding the amount of change possible. Our mirror neurons make it so we have a natural disposition toward not inflicting pain on others, but this can be overcome with enough influence.

I do agree that the root of the problem is changing how people view morality. What I question though is whether or not this can be done on a large enough scale to out-pace the governments attempts at changing morality in the other direction. Perhaps we have the advantage of having that ‘natural predisposition’ on our side so swaying toward that requires less work than swaying people away from it. Though, perhaps the natural disposition is really on the other side (governments).

While I agree that a relationship between aesthetic taste, morals and political beliefs exists, it would be a mistake to judge artworks as shit without taking into account the mental processes of the artist or perceiver. Art is ultimately in someone’s mind and does not consist of the specific notes or brushstrokes.

I appreciate both Lady Gaga and Wagner, and I consider my understanding and appreciation of their music to be above most people’s. I can explain the elements in each that excite me so. The reason I can’t appreciate hip-hop is because my mind is not ‘in tune’ with the musical ideas in hip-hop music as I normally interpret them, but perhaps with a change in focus, I could find something to appreciate there.

You do mention “subjective but not arbitrary” and so I think we’re not that far off in what we have in mind regarding arts and morality, but my point is, our interpretations of form are more malleable than you seem to be willing to allow.

An ‘objective’ brand of elitism merely shuts a person from a future rewarding experience. If you’ve read Hermann Hesse’s ‘Steppenwolf,’ you can recall how the hero Harry Haller experiences both Mozart and ‘lowly’ jazz as ultimate things, depending on the particular moment. Ultimately, a critique reveals more about the critic than the critiqued.

Ralph Waldo Emerson: “It is a proof of the shallowness of the doctrine of beauty as it lies in the minds of our amateurs, that men seem to have lost the perception of the instant dependence of form upon soul.”

What are “bad morals”?

What exactly makes them “perversions” instead of just “differences”?

So if I understand correctly, we can split satisfaction into active and passive, or, satisfaction that we strive for (with means) and satisfaction that is thrust upon us. And morality, as the aesthetic of others’ behavior, is passive satisfaction because we are sort of observers of this behavior and not actors (we are not the others). In this framework, one couldn’t meaningfully say “I strive to act morally.” In fact, morality could never apply in the first person, right? Otherwise it would become a form of active satisfaction. And then to say “they acted morally” would necessarily mean that they acted in some way that ultimately pleased me, but fully unintentionally. In other words, morality can only be examined like a painting in a museum, ignoring the fact that action was in place: someone created that painting to attain their own satisfaction.

On another note, your views on John Cage (and I’m assuming a lot of modern art) are really one dimensional.

I just don’t understand this explicit and implicit rejection of self-gratification. Why does someone outside of ‘self’ need to experience a picture before it is art, a sound before it is music, and an action before it is morality?

Back to music though, I just wanted to point out that the end result (the sound going into your head) of a lot of modern music is not what the art is about. Did you know Cage has scores on display at the MOMA in New York. The sheet music itself is beautiful. Or if you look at the serial music of Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg, the end sound is unbearable to most. But if you understand the theory of 12 tone serialism you can recognize the mathematical transformations of the tone row. The theory is beautiful. What I’m saying is, this is not nihilism, this is creating art according to predetermined rules. It is really a rejection of aimless romanticism and a return to the strict rules of Bach.

Awesome posts Clayton, I couldn’t agree more.

I wouldn’t call it “bad morals” but “irrational and inconsistent ideas about morality”. Now, what says people should be consistent and rational? Here’s a little challenge. I know that only Molyneux tried to prove this for a long time. Anyone know different people so that I could examine their arguments more closely?

Precisely. And this is not my own idea, Bastiat explains this in his Economic Harmonies:

The soul (or, not to become involved in spiritual questions, man) is endowed with the faculty of sense perception. Whether sense perception resides in the body or in the soul, the fact remains that as a passive being he experiences sensations that are painful or pleasurable. As an active being he strives to banish the former and multiply the latter. The result, which affects him again as a passive being, can be called satisfaction.

From the general idea of sensation come the more definite ideas of pain, wants, desires, tastes, appetites, on the one hand; and, on the other, of pleasure, enjoyment, fulfillment, and well-being.

Between these extremes is interposed a mean, and from the general idea of activity come the more definite ideas of pain, effort, fatigue, labor, and production.

Well that’s why I said, “Satisfaction of a moral ideal with respect to one’s own actions is more complicated because it is intertwined with the means an individual chooses to attain his ends…” I should also have said that it is intertwined with the ends he will choose. Imagine your ends as a set of destinations and your means as a set of paths to those destinations. Individual morality is a subset of your valuation by which you choose which ends to pursue as well as which means you find acceptable in the pursuits of those ends. I want to own a Lamborghini. Stealing one is a path toward this end but it is not a path that I find morally acceptable (it is inconsistent with my moral self-image).

There’s more that should be said about this, if I get time, I will.

Well, if John Cage or his audience enjoys shit, that’s their business. As I said, there are pathological exceptions to the rule. But the fact remains that if aesthetic judgment is to be meaningful at all then some art must be shit and other art divine. To equivocate and say that everybody’s opinion on what is good art is equal is to democratize valuation. Not everybody’s opinion is equal. And this is where the Misesean idea of profit and loss enters the picture… without a market in art, we have no way to tell what is good or bad art. We just have a lot of clamoring and pontification about what is, supposedly, great art in the opinions of those whose government-subsidized job is to sit around all day and ponder art. But since when do academics have a corner on the market in taste?? It’s like saying that the best food is whatever the food critics say or the best movies are whatever the movie critics say… surely you can see the absurdity in this. Back when there was a real market in classical music, it was easy to see what qualifies as music… whatever people will pay to hear a second time. The rest was shit. With the advent of subsidized art, anything can and does become “art”.

Yes, I’m familiar with tone row music but I disagree that it has any relation to Bach. A tone row is built on the silly idea of using each of the 12 notes in the chromatic scale one time before allowing any one to repeat… I cannot imagine why a person would want to do this except to build a chromatic scale or some interesting variation thereof. Bach’s music was based on voices and playing with voices until you find the hidden structure within them. As a sheer genius, he apparently had the ability to do this largely in his head otherwise he could never have written the volume of music that he did. He used and extended the body of contrapuntal methods which some of the modernists mimic while wholly missing the point. Bach’s music is structured but it is not mere structure and I would argue that a great deal of the Schoenberg-style “brainy” modern music is empty structure without musicality.

Clayton -

Why don’t you find that “morally acceptable”?

Don’t you mean that if John Cage or his audience enjoys what you don’t enjoy, that’s their business?

Why would it be a “pathological” exception, instead of just an exception?

Meaningful in what sense?

What if you just say that you can’t compare them (one is neither better nor equal to any other)?

Why not just adopt a standard (for music, you could pick strong emotional manipulation, certain kinds of patterns, or whatever), and then try to figure out what best conforms itself to that standard?

No, I mean what I wrote. The difference between me and the audience of John Cage is that there are billions of people who share my tastes and precious few (hundreds? thousands maybe?) who actually enjoy Cage’s crap. This is not to say that numbers determine aesthetics… far from it. But go back to what I wrote on the music market and look at the situation from the point of view of a would-be music composer in a genuine market for music. Let’s say he really enjoys Cage’s music and, if he had his own way, would write music that is in Cage’s “style”. Nevertheless, he is constrained by market demand. Unless he’s subsidized or has a patron (patronage is also a kind of market, by the way) he must respond to the audience’s demands, go hungry or find a different line of work. Music that cannot pass a market test is shit music. If a composer wants to write it for his own enjoyment or show it to like-minded friends who also will enjoy such amusical endeavors he is, of course, free to do so and I wish him the best. But if a composer is incapable of writing music that will entertain people enough that they are willing to pay for it*, he just sucks and his music is crap.

*Note that money is not the only way people are willing to pay for good entertainment… some musicians perform for free at parties but their audience still indicates its willingness to pay by paying attention. If the audience would rather leave the room or ignore the music, it’s crappy music (or, what is the same, the wrong music for the party).

Because market demand is not arbitrary, it reflects human nature. People eat bread but not rat poison because bread is suitable to the human digestive tract and rat poison is not. Similarly, people listen to rock and roll but not a pure sine wave at 1000Hz because rock and roll is suitable to the human ear but a pure sine wave at 1000Hz is not. The few people odd enough to maybe sit in front of a speaker just listening to a 1000Hz tone constitute a pathological exception. Their brains are wired different or something about them is significantly different from the rest of us. It’s not normal.

Because such a choice, without reference to human nature or the human demand for musical entertainment, is purely arbitrary and, therefore, a pointless exercise.

Clayton -

I don’t know, it’s just not.

Clayton -

But some aspects of them really are not malleable. Symmetry, proportion, variation, unity… these are aesthetic attributes that exist in every culture and we can conclude, therefore, that these attributes are down to our genetics, the hardwiring. The presence of the elements of aesthetics are what makes something art. Without these elements, it’s something else. Otherwise, you’re equivocating on the word art and both everything is art and nothing is art.

Not familiar with Hesse but I agree that prejudice shuts off potentially rewarding experiences and I’m not encouraging prejudice. If you want to know for yourself whether Cage’s music is crap, go listen to it, I provided the link above. In the act of checking my opinion, you may have a rewarding experience. This is how art appreciation works.

Great quote. The human soul underlies form - without humanity, there is no form just patterns accidentally selected from the set of all possible patterns.

Clayton -

By the way, this quote drove me mad! I’m a huge fan of romantic music. In fact, I think the pinnacle of achievement in classical music was achieved in the late Romantic era just as modernism began to rear its ugly head. I find most modern classical music to be pointless, aimless, wandering and unstructured unless you take the raw score and go on a puzzle-hunt looking for the clever ways the composer tried to exhibit his vast command of music theory. The greatest romantic music is just as structured - in fact, I would argue more so - as anything Bach wrote.

Consider Chopin’s “Winter Wind” Etude, decidedly romantic and yet highly structured:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJMIIxm1bGo

In the right hand, he’s interlaced a descending chromatic scale with broken chords and the left hand carries the melodic and rhythmic structure and there is some contrapuntal structure in the piece as well, yet it has all the bravura of Wagner. Another example from Chopin (my fav composer by far), is his 2nd Scherzo which, like the above Etude, has all the bravura of any Romantic era piece but the musical structure is deep and rich. Unlike modern music, the Romantic composers - like the Baroques before them - liberally incorporated themes, rhythms and harmonies from the folk music of their time and you hear folk music galore coming through this piece, all within a template of disciplined musical structure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_MwPdr7WXQ

Here’s a piece from Rachmaninoff which wears its structure on its sleeve. The pinnacles of musical beauty achieved by Rachmaninoff shows just how much we’ve lost to a century of subsidized arts. Imagine how much further we could have gone!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyxpeLh7z3s

If you follow the score, you can see very Bach-esque patterns in the arpeggiated chords as well as in how they act against the melodic lines. Yet Rachmaninoff was the pinnacle of late Romanticism, where my heart lies.

</aimless romanticism>

Clayton -

tl/dr

but I skimmed through it. Seems you are just correlating two things you don’t like: 1) some music that you don’t like and 2) the state. So your confirmation bias links the two together.

John Cage had a classical music training. Even studying with Arnold Schoenberg for a period. He just had a different intent. He did write regular music at different points (for instance his piano piece “Dreams”). His main thing was that he just enjoyed the ordinariness of sound and space. Even of the hustle and bustle of cities. I saw him on a show a few years ago and he said that he was just deeply influenced by zen. He wasn’t really a very serious person. He always seemed to be laughing at his own work and just enjoying life. Not trying to put anyone on or present a falseness.

What you said about him isn’t particularly original. It has become a bit of a cliche to point to him or Jackson Pollock and say it is the downfall of civilization itself. For many many decades. If you didn’t know: John Cage isn’t a teen sensation, he has been long dead for almost 20 years. And literal zillions of armchair critics on the internet and pre-internet have thought they were the first to make such criticisms. Most of them with very little thought about philosophy, but a lot of smug and elitism.

And for the most part even people who are into far out stuff are the last people who are a serious threat to anyone. For the most part people take Cage for what it is and can listen to any number of other things as well. Whether it be classical or rock music. Classical music unto itself has dug around in experimentation and series for almost a hundred years. Largely due to the declining numbers of those interested, not the other way around. And other forms, conforming or not, have come a long with it.

All I can say is you should have read it. It’s not actually that long.

Who cares.

Fine. Trent Reznor did the sound effects for the hit game Quake, but he didn’t try to say his sound effects were music. The little of Cage that I’ve endured doesn’t rise above the level of a fairly pedestrian sound effect track. The “Piano Conerto” above, for example, is not music.

That may be, I didn’t know John Cage so I couldn’t possibly comment on his persona. However, John Cage’s legacy - whether he would have it be this or not - is the public-subsidized “canon” of orchestral playlists. It’s played because that’s what serious conductors are supposed to play from time to time. That’s it.

I said nothing about the downfall of civilization, you really should have read what I wrote. Civilization will be just fine no matter Cage and Pollock but that doesn’t mean a great deal of human creativity hasn’t been nuked by a century of public art subsidies forcing out genuine artists who could have made it in a genuine art market but were instead upstaged by the well-connected, annointed “artists”. How many Beethovens and Monets of the 20th century became discouraged, gave up and moved on to do something else?

The irony of calling Cage-criticism elitism. As for the cheap accusation of philosophical shallowness, feel free to tangle with me on any topic of philosophy you like.

Clayton -

The following is somewhat philisophical so if you aren’t interested in debating philosophy please don’t respond.

If a computer randomly generated the same set of noise as your favorite musician, would it equally be considered music? If a computer randomly generated what Beethoven generated, would it be considered music? I am not talking about a program that is designed by a musician to create something that is appealing. I am talking about a computer that spends eternity randomly generating noise and at some point it happens to spit out a sequential collection of noise that matches Cage, Beethoven, your favorite musician, etc.

I have asked people of this before and some have suggested that art (in any form) is only art because of the intent behind it so a computer can not randomly generate art (it has no intent). I am curious how other people weigh in on this topic. Is it art because of the finished product or is it art because of the intent behind the product?

My personal view is that art is only art because of the finished product and whether it is asthetically pleasing to me. Whether a computer generated it randomly or a person put it together intentionally is of no consequence to me in my determination of whether or not it is art.

But that is exactly what you ended up saying. Simple argumentatum ad populum. It’s like you completely tossed out all Austrian methodology when it comes to value and exchange.

I don’t think you understand entrepreneurship and entrepreneurial risk. I also think that as JohnE indicated, you’re conflating your values with some market derived truth.