Intellectual Property and Normative Social Theory

I don’t know what you are trying to ask here. Please be clear and specifiy. What physical things are you referring to? If you specify this, then we can figure out who the owners are, and what acts are impermissible–that is, what would constitution aggression or trespass against said property rights.

I am simply elaborating and clarifying on basic property concepts already accepted by libertarians and Austrians, and showing that IP is incompatible with same.

There are no property rights in the value of property. Only to its physical integrity.

Liberty Student:

I don’t deny that Mises employed the terms property and private property in his writings. He also employed the term liberalism.

Since Mises’s time, social theory has changed and advanced in some respects. Now, almost no libertarians employ the term liberalism except as a term of history. You don’t refer to yourself as a liberal, but as a libertarian anarchist. As a general rule, I don’t employ the term property or private property in my writings. I believe that doing so ties one into a Lockean/Rothbardian theory of society that is based on objective concepts; concepts that have been supplanted by the insights of the Austrian school. In The Ethics of Liberty, Rothbard disavowed methodological subjectivism and value-free science as a valid approach to comprehending non-market social phenomena (forms of social interaction outside of market exchanges). Hoppe and Kinsella admit that they are working within and/or trying to extend or improve on the Rothbardian program. This means to some extent the abandonment of Austrian subjectivism and replacing this with objective concepts (objective value, objective scarcity, etc.) The term “private property ethic” as it is used at the Mises Institute means: Lockean/Rothbardian objective social theory.

You write that your question does not require a value judgment. But I believe it at least requires something like a normative assumption, and I believe I can demonstrate this succinctly.

The anti-IP theory is based on a distinction between tangible entities that cannot occupy the same space at the same time and ideal entities (ideas) that can be “possessed” by an unlimited number of people simultaneously. This is the foundational concept or insight being utilized.

In the course of the theory, proponents employ various concepts such as: property, intellectual property, justification, possession, crime, fraud, rights, artificial, force, ownership, aggression, trespass, etc., etc.,

What I believe may be happening, is that the proponents of the anti-IP theory are utilizing many of these subsidiary concepts, but not specifying whether these concepts are to be considered tangible objects or ideal entities. As far as I know, the anti-IP theory does not explicitly define a third category of entities. If I am wrong here, and the anti-IP theory explicitly defines a third category of entities, I will stand corrected and revise my statements. But if the anti-IP theory doesn’t explicitly define a third category of entities, then I assume that entities such as property, rights, and justification must be considered either a tangible object or an ideal entity (idea).

If I understand Stephan Kinsella correctly, he is saying that the anti-IP argument only holds for people who already share the normative assumptions of this theory. To me, this means that the anti-IP theory holds among those people who believe that the meaning of terms such as “property,” “rights,” and “justification,” and similar terms is self-evident. The meaning of these terms (property, rights, justification) must be considered self-evident to those who accept the theory, because these terms are not defined in terms of the theory’s explicit categories: tangible objects / ideal objects.

To understand what I’m saying, take the question you are asking me: “are ideas property”

And instead ask: “is property a tangible object or an idea?”

By the standard of your request of me, you should be able to answer this question precisely.

If you cannot answer this question precisely, then I may argue that you have not defined the term “property” clearly in terms of the explicit categories of the anti-IP theory: tangible objects / ideas

If no third category of entities is clearly defined in the anti-IP theory, this seems to indicate that the meaning of such terms as property, rights, justification, etc., are held to be self-evident amongst the group of people employing such terms. I understand Kinsella as generally agreeing with this, and holding that the group of people in this case is libertarians. I would take issue with the view that libertarians are those who subscribe to a Lockean/Rothbardian social theory. I think that since the advent of Austrian economics, it won’t be possible to construct a consistent social theory based on objective concepts (objective value, objective scarcity, etc.). I consider as libertarians those who hold liberty as an ideal, and this conception is a wider concept and includes non-Rothbardians such as Mises, Hayek, and many many others. In other words, it is not necessary to be a Rothbardian to be a libertarian.

One last thought about the anti-IP theory. I think at root, the anti-IP theory is still an attempt to overcome Hume’s “is-ought” gap. It is still an attempt to arrive at normative prescriptions from descriptive premises. I base this statement on Hume’s famous passage, which I will paraphrase using some of the terms from the anti-IP theory:

“I cannot forbear adding to these reasonings an observation, which may, perhaps, be found to be of some importance. In every system of morality, which I have hitherto met with, I have always remark’d, that the author proceeds for some time in the ordinary way of reasoning, and establishes the being of a tangible object, or makes observations cornering an idea; when of a sudden I am surpriz’d to find, that instead of the usual copulations and propositions, is or is not a tangible object, is or is not an idea, I meet with no proposition that is not connected with a “is property” or “is a right.” This change is imperceptible; but is, however, of the last consequence. For as this “is property” or “is a right” expresses some new relation or affirmation, 'tis necessary that it shou’d be observ’d and explain’d; and at the same time that a reason should be given, for what seems altogether inconceivable, how this new relation can be a deduction from others, which are entirely different from it. But as authors to not commonly use this precaution, I shall presume to recommend it to the readers; and am persuaded, that this small attention wou’d subvert al the vulgar systems of morality, and let us see, that the distinction of “property” and “rights” is not founded merely on the relations of objects, nor is perceiv’d by reason.”

Adam, you still didn’t answer the question. Are ideas property, yes/no, and what standard would you use to make that determination?

I am asking you to clearly lay out your terms. Will you do this?

Adam,

That was a great post. It was a lot more clear than previous posts earlier in the thread and got across (I think) exactly what you’re trying to say.

My point of departure with your reasoning is on what is subjective and what is not. Value is certainly subjective, as you noted. Scarcity, however, is not subjective at all. Something is either subject to reproduction without damaging the original (or even requiring the use of the original) or it isn’t, and no human thought is required for this to be true. That’s why in a previous thread I told Jeffrey Tucker that I don’t like the traditional definition of “non-scarce”, because it tends to include things that really are scarce, just not scarce enough to matter at that particular moment.

Property, on the other hand, is subjective. Not the physical object but the concept of property itself. It is possible, as this thread demonstrates, for people to have different ideas about what property is and should be. Moreover, if we state nothing further on the subject it is not possible for one side to tell the other that they are wrong! “Ought” is subjective, and such a limited discussion would be about what “ought” to be property.

But that isn’t the limit of our discussion. Instead, we are going further and saying why property should exist as a certain concept. I personally - and I think this holds true of most people who are in agreement with me - believe that property exists as a concept solely to deliniate property rights, and that those rights are designed to minimize conflict. With such a subjective end in mind we can now move beyond the realm of “ought” and into the realm of “is”. We can logically deduce what system of rights is the best at achieving the stated goal of minimizing conflict. We can now actually tell each other that we’re wrong.

For example, I could state that, to minimize conflict, a well formed property right must be able to be claimed by everyone at once without limiting or interfering with the same right being claimed by someone else. IP violates this principle and is therefore invalid for a system trying to minimize conflict. You could tell me I’m wrong for a number of reasons and we could fight about it all day, but only one of us is actually right. It isn’t subjective at all.

Similarly, I could state that IP support includes a right to property value, not just property use, and therefore pro-IP people must be formulating a rights system that includes the stated subjective goal that a good property rights system ought to protect the value of property. Therefore, their system must allow for things like the earlier given example of protecting the value of the oil driller’s investment by denying competitors in the area. Either that or they must revise their basic, subjective goal to something else.

This is, I believe, why liberty student wants you to define if ideas are property and how you arrive at such a conclusion. Doing so will let us discover the subjective goals of your property rights system and we can then come to other, objective conclusions once we know that.

Great comment. Indeed, the pro-IP position is the labor theory of value redux for ideas.

Liberty Student:

I believe I’ve explained my position in detail above. There may be several more ways I can express it, but once I run out of ways to explain it, I will eventually have to stand with what I have already written.

The Misesian conception of purposive action is conceived in terms of defined categories. Each praxeologist can conceivably define his/her categories differently, and each praxeologist can conceive of various kinds or numbers of categories.

In this kind of thinking and theorizing then, the concept of property would either have to be itself a category of action, or, conceived in terms of the categories of action. As I understand things, there is no third way.

Since I subscribe to and advocate a Misesian-derived theory of human action, I could only conceive of property as a category of action (which I don’t), or in terms of the categories of action. But in my theory of action, there are only two categories: means and ends. The concept of property will no longer exist as a coherent concept in this system, because it will be broken down to more fundamental elements. More accurately, such a concept will never arise in the first place, since the theory will begin with the fundamental elements of action, and build from there…

If I may borrow an analogy from physical science, if we insist on an answer to the question “what is the temperature of an atom?” we insist on a manner of approaching things that implies a totally different conceptual frame of reference.

To see how this is so, we can also ask about the nature of ideas using other theories. For example:

Are ideas divine? Are they sacred? Are they blessed? Are they of the soul? Of God? Yes or no? To answer yes or no then automatically brings the theory referred to into operation. If you answer this question precisely, you will find yourself in a discussion conducted on the basis of religious conceptions.

I think you understand this principle. Because I put forth the question whether property is a tangible object or an idea—two categories explicitly referred to in the anti-IP theory—and you declined to specify whether property is a tangible object or an idea.

This indicates to me that you realize that to specify this, would be to specify the terms (grounding concepts or assumptions) of the discussion.

I won’t insist that you do this (specify whether property is a tangible object or an idea), because I believe that if you do, it will imply a contradiction in the anti-IP theory, and ultimately a rejection of that theory. Since you have made it clear to me that you want to uphold and support the anti-IP theory, my insisting that you choose between categorizing property as a tangible object or an idea, would be to insist that you argue against the anti-IP theory.

But I don’t want you to argue against that theory if you don’t want to. Your choice (your ultimate judgment of value; your ultimate preference) in this matter is the final word as far as I’m concerned.

All I can do is to point out to you what I believe to be the problems with this theory. If you repeat that you only want to speak on the terms of this theory, you repeat that this theory is your choice or preference. As a libertarian, and as an Austrian theorist, I can live with that.

If I may also respond to Adam’s latest post:

Based on your OP, I figured you were talking about the is-ought problem. However, I think you have the anti-IP camp’s argument backwards. It begins with a definition of “property” and then asks whether ideas fit that definition. Ultimately it concludes that they do not.

So the is-ought problem doesn’t apply. While it’s certainly normative to say whether one should hold the same definition of “property” as the anti-IP camp, or whether “property rights” (however one defines them) should be upheld, it’s entirely descriptive to provide a definition for a word such as “property”.

As cporter pointed out, however, there is something of a normative assumption at work here – namely that conflicts should be minimized.

There is no need to make that assumption. It is in the interests of anyone who does not possess overwhelming power (and can, therefore, win every conflict) to minimize the conflicts in which he is involved because the costs of losing multiplied by the probability of loss is greater than the benefits of winning multiplied by the probability of winning (simple profit/loss calculation).

Clayton -

Autolykos:

“Based on your OP, I figured you were talking about the is-ought problem. However, I think you have the anti-IP camp’s argument backwards. It begins with a definition of “property” and then asks whether ideas fit that definition. Ultimately it concludes that they do not.”

Good point.

As I understand it, tangible objects and ideal objects are two (relatively) clear notions of the anti-IP theory. “Property” seems to be something different than those. It is either a combination of the two, or something that includes one of them in combination with something else, or property is something entirely different and separate from tangible objects and ideas.

In comparison with the notions of tangible object and ideal object (ideas), the concept of property seems to be one that eludes precise definition. Perhaps there is no precise definition of property that property theorists agree on, but rather what binds property theorists is the conviction that some precise definition will emerge. In other words, maybe there is a normative agreement that some concept of property is the best theoretical approach to a given set of social problems, and this normative agreement or intersubjective agreement serves to some extent as a working definition of property in lieu of a rigorous definition of it.

cporter:

Thank you for your comments.

“Scarcity, however, is not subjective at all. Something is either subject to reproduction without damaging the original (or even requiring the use of the original).”

May I take you as arguing that scarcity is best conceived as an objective feature of physical nature ?

You have provided two definitions or notions of objective scarcity:

  1. Something is subject to reproduction without damaging the original.

  2. Something is subject to reproduction without requiring the use of the original.

Can you please apply your definitions to the following examples ?

Example 1:

Person A: Brand X toasters are scarce.

Person B: No they’re not. I can reproduce a brand X toaster without damaging the original.

Example 2:

Person A: I’ve reproduced a brand X toaster without using the original.

Person B: How do you know you reproduced the original without using the original as a reference ?

Yes, I am arguing that scarcity is an objective feature of physical nature.

Two quick issues before I respond to your examples. First, you may be reading what I said backwards. If you restated your opening line in the quote above as “You have provided two definitions or notions of objective non-scarcity” then the following list would make more sense. i.e. something that is subject to reproduction without damaging the original is non-scarce, not scarce. Second, I wouldn’t use the wording “definitions” to describe what I said. Notions, perhaps, but not definitions. The statement would make good a good clue that something is non-scarce, but is hardly a definitional statement all on its own, at the very least because it assumes a discussion on IP by its terminology, as your first example points out. My mistake for not being more specific.

At any rate:

Person A should be saying “this toaster design is scarce”, which of course is not true. Person B can reproduce an identical toaster without damaging the original design in any way.

This example doesn’t suffer at all from my poorly formed original statement. The fact that you don’t know you reproduced it doesn’t matter. It could be pointed out to you later or you could discover it on your own later, but it in no way affects your original “recreation” of the toaster design. This particular bit highlights one of the more ridiculous claims of current IP law. Namely that I, without any interaction involving your product, can create my own identical product with my own stuff, and yet you can somehow claim to own what I just created.

Any praxeologist knows that there is no such thing as an exact replica. Even two cans of Coke, manufactured at the same plant, in the same hour, are unique and differentiated objects.

Don’t even get me started on marginalism and ordinal decision making.

Liberty Student:

“Any praxeologist knows that there is no such thing as an exact replica. Even two cans of Coke, manufactured at the same plant, in the same hour, are unique and differentiated objects.”

Do you include ideas (ideal objects) in this, or no ?

Are atoms property?

Is volume (space) property?

Is surface (area) property?

Is length (line) property?

Is a point property?

Is time property?

Is labor property?

Is honor property?

Is good-will property?

Is friendship property?

Is peace property?

Is quiet property?

Is ‘peace and quiet’ property?

Is freedom property?

Is information property?

Is matter property?

Is energy property?

Are waves property?

Is plasma property?

Is heat property?

Yes or no, and under what definition?

My copies of your $100 bill and your DVD copies of my movie. Physically, they are nothing but worthless pieces of paper and DVDs. It is the information baked onto them that turns those objects into carriers (media) for something that the market values much more than the value of the carriers by themselves. So: “Either we both get to do whatever we want with our own physical copies, without any ‘random’ limitations based on intangible concepts such as numbers or patterns, OR we try to figure out a way to avoid what we both think is fraudulent and/or unfair. Or we could always go to martial contest. What would Mises do?”

Why couldn’t humans subjectively value, create and exchange entities that have no physical integrity, or any physical attributes whatever? Why limit the realm of human action?

Z, I will do 5 from your list, shorten it up.

Information does not violate your stated principle. Just as an owner of a square yard of land gets to control what happens on his patch of the physical universe, an owner of a 10 GB pattern (delineating an information-theoretic vicinity around that information point) gets to control what happens on his patch of the information universe. Both are the sole owners and controllers of their respective patches of property, and have a justified interest in preventing trespassers from using/controlling their property without their approval.

Z.

But the list was already truncated.

[EDIT: Pick your own 5 or 2. I’ll probably survive.]

The concept of taking unowned material and producing property from it is called original appropriation, or colloquially, homesteading.

You enjoying a party at my house does not conflict with my vacation, but it does conflict with my intended use for my house while I’m away on vacation. Hence the house is still a scarce or rivalrous good. Does that help you understand what I mean?

In that same vein, a producer of IP does not intend for his product to be used by people who have not remunerated him for their use, hence it is scarce. Were it not scarce, not only would there not have to be any production, but all consumers could satisfy their wants limitlessly.

One thing that doesn’t seem to have been brought up (but which Mr. Kinsella does bring up in Against Intellectual Property) is the fact that many IP-type arrangements can be satisfied, or at least approximated, through private contracts. However, since contracts cannot cover unknown third parties, this kind of situation is more limited than the statist IP law we live under today.

As I pointed out in the fallacies of intellectual communism, property is not a contract. Contracts only define how property is to be contractually transformed in ownership. A non-contractual, legalized use of property is legal nonsense. Contracts do not cover unknown third parties because they are third parties, and hence they have no rights in this situation, and certainly no rights to the property in question.

Yes.

The irony of you asking me a yes or no question amuses me greatly.