I must second the opinion about the Jewish faith seeming to be the least statists. Perhaps that is indeed the reason why Jewish communities have almost always excelled at trade. That could be worth exploring.
Quote by JakobM: “So, are you a person who has had some weird experience, or are you a muslim saying that all the lies propagated by islam are not lies? Forget about the logical proof for the existence of god - this is mostly a historical issue.”
When you say lies propagated by Islam I don’t know what you’re talking about, could you be more specific? You’re talking as if I already accept that religion is a lie or that I’m trying to deceive you right now. Yes I’m a Muslim that believes all of what Quran says if that’s what you’re talking about. I don’t accept any political agendas that any Theocracy has though.
When it comes to political agendas…Muslims aren’t supposed to force anyone to do anything they don’t want to. They’re to leave them to their own devices.(Islam is about submission to God, not submission to man). Will people use the religion to advance a political agenda? Yes- but that goes for almost anything under the sun. The Republicans in this country have the “honor” of being considered the Free-market party by most people, when we can plainly see that’s not what they’re about. Hypocrisy hasn’t vanished.
Do you think all spirituality is a bunch of lies? Or consider it irrelevant? Or are you just arguing against dogmas and rulings/fatwas that may have come about from various “religious leaders” to force people to take some kind of action like the Crusades?(I don’t agree with those at all). Just curious.
Quote by PirateRothbard:.“My gut feeling is that devout Muslims are the least libertarian, not that I have any objective metric to measure that. The whole thing with the cartoonist and Theo VG was very scary. Personally I wouldn’t want to live next to anyone who was willing to commit violence against blasphemers, so I would hope there would be a very judicious use of the exclusion principal against devout Muslims in gated communities and employment.”
Those aren’t “devout Muslims”- those are the ones that make the news. I would think people here wouldn’t make generalizations so quick, but I guess its a common practice these days, so even people who I’d hold to a higher standard like you would fall prey to that kind of quick judgement that those must be the “devout” Muslims. . A real muslim would follow Quran. Quran says nothing about killing anybody for making images of prophet Muhammad or anything like that. None of those so called Muslims have any understanding of the Quran. Do I say this with absolute certainty? Yes. Plain and simple. I haven’t met any Muslim that thinks its ok to kill someone else. They don’t like the negative portrayals of their religion but they’re not gonna hurt anyone over it. I only hear about crazy people like that on the news, I’ve never met anyone like that in a Mosque or anything like that. This idea that Muslims are raised to hurt and kill anyone who’s a blasphemer is something to scare you. Perhaps it does happen in extremely poor areas where most are illiterate, so they use religion as the common belief to band together like a gang. But there are violent people like that in a lot of poverty stricken areas.
I mean I dunno but comments like that do make me feel a bit weird. Does it go something like this
Someguy: “Hey man I know your religion says you’re going to hurt me so…I’m gonna have to ask you to leave the community.”
Me:“I’m not going to hurt you, my religion doesn’t make me want to do that.”
Someguy:“Yeah whatever man don’t try to pull a fast one on me, I know what you muzzies are up to. Always plotting, scheming, with your scary chanting and funny clothes”
Me:“Huh? When have I done anything to you?”
Someguy:" I better kick you out of the community before you get any ideas. Then I’ll finally be safe."
The most DEVOUT Muslims, are the ones that are ordinary- the ones you don’t really care about because there’s not gonna be a news story about them. The ones that go to work, take care of their children, give to charity every month, leave you to what you worship, and leave themselves to what they worship, and are very positive about trade. Just a look at the “Golden Age” Of Islam shows a Muslim society that was to an extent much closer to the core religion than ANYTHING like today. Today things are very very warped in nearly all “Muslim” countries. The worst thing being the puppet kings and dictators that own the Muslim world. Its a joke to believe that a monarchy such as Saudi Arabia can be considered an example of what Muslims want- since such rulers are anathema to Muslim belief.(That any man is born better than another and has rights over another).
Hoppe’s analysis placed it at the bottom in terms of growth potential. If you take the Talmud seriously, they more or less have no inhibitions with respect to non-jews. See Bloomj31’s posts for detailed example. Internally, they are the epitome of communism. Externally, anything goes.
Could you provide a link. Looks interesting.
Thanks!
Liberte says it like it is. Libertarianism is like a religion in the sense that it holds a universal set of precepts that people gravitate to. It doesn’t have a god however and that allows it to be melded with other religions. Religion is a total non-issue and this post seems like Objectivist antitheist trolling.
^PirateRothbard
You are absolutely wrong. There is no mention of submitting to the state in Islam, only to God. Personally, I learned a good chunk of libertarianism from my very devout Muslim father. He has always told me his religion have influenced his politics. I see myself as very religious, and very much an anarchist. Islam has a great relationship with capitalism, Muhammad (as) himself was a merchant. Islam also has no political structure to it. No archbishop. No hierarchy. This concept of jihad is a concept of struggle, most of against oneself, as a way of improvement of oneself. Went it comes to shared values:
“Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors”. 2:190
“There is no compulsion in religion” 2:256
When it comes to the cartoons, I want to get one thing very clear: Most Muslims don’t care about the cartoons. Some people became offended because of the content. But when it comes to depicting the prophet, Shiite Muslims already do it. Sunnis are against it, but that rule only applies to themselves. It’s also a rule that is extended to ALL prophets believed by Muslims. This includes Jesus, and obviously Jesus is depicted everywhere, and even belittled.
Also fuck all this Islamophobia that’s coming out of this, some people are using this censorship to show their true hatred towards people they see as different. Most Muslims are indifferent. In fact, Shiite Muslims actually depict Prophet Muhhamad, and Sunni Muslims who don’t, only the extend the rule to themselves. This rule is universal to Sunni Muslims, which includes other Prophets like Jesus, and they don’t get offended by that.
Frankly, if you think Jews are the most libertarian group, then Muslims would not be far off. There is not too much of a difference, the two groups are much more similar then Jews and Christians.
Most Muslims don’t care (like me). Personally, Fuck censorship of all kinds.
Also fuck all this Islamophobia that’s coming out of this, some people are using this censorship to show their true hatred towards people they see as different. Most Muslims are indifferent. In fact, Shiite Muslims actually depict Prophet Muhhamad, and Sunni Muslims who don’t, only the extend the rule to themselves. This rule is universal to Sunni Muslims, which includes other Prophets like Jesus, and they don’t get offended by that.
You are right. Back in the good old days before Albania was forcedly unified, you had great trading centers like Shkoder, where the Muslims where inveriably merchants, while the Catholics confined themselves to poetry and fanaticizing about fascism. So indeed there is no built-in statist clause in Islam. And then again, there are different types of Islam too. Shias give way, way less of a damn about others than sunnis. They are the Confucians of the Muslim world.
The Islamic world was the first capitalist society (around 13th century) with banks, exchange, interest rates, vibrant markets, ect. The renaissance came to the middle east way before it hit the European continent.