Involuntary Unemployment.

Involuntary unemployment always exists even in an unhampered market. Jesús Huerta de Soto explains how even though there may exist a mutally beneficial opportunity for an employee and an employer they might not have the sufficiet alertness to discover, and benefit from it.

An enterpreneural act creates new information,therefore it it doesn’t have anything to do with imperfect information. It is not that getting the information is inefficient and therefore voluntary, it is that the information does not exist.

So de Soto is saying “transaction costs => involuntary”.

I think that’s absurd and Utopian.

I just want to point out that your anti-Utopianism sounds Utopian.

I must be the only Utopian on this planet who bases his Utopia on fully recognizing scarcity than.

Adam,

The quote from Hoppe is true, insofar as we accept that unemployment is even a possibility. This is where, I think, the disagreement on this thread arises. If employment is defined as the application of labor, with other factors production, towards satisfying some end, then nearly all (or all?) human action can be considered acts of employment. All human action requires labor and some other factor of production (even if it may be time). So, unemployment, theoretically speaking is impossible.

A similar discussion developed over at my blog, where I solidified my ideas on unemployment (I concede that discussion here sort of confused my ideas, and I supported positions that may not be entirely logically consistent). I try to define employment within an economy, or a specific division of labor. A co-blogger of mine rebutted with,

In the more precise and practical nomenclature, we define employment as a specific function of a complex economy built on the division of labor. As Will rightly pointed out earlier (as I have in another post), it is clearly possible to be employed by yourself and engage in autarkic labor. This should be considered employment for reasons I give in earlier paragraphs.

I responded,

Your first two sentences contradict each other. Autarkic labor no longer is beneficial to the division of labor, because one who is employed within a division of labor cannot, by definition, be autarkic. To be employed in a division of labor means that your labor is specialized towards the production of few goods, while the majority of your desires are satiated by others. Autarky suggests that you, and only you, produce to meet your own desires.

This is why I suggest that when talking about unemployment in an economy (or, economy here should be defined as “a division of labor”) we consider those living through autarkic means as not part of the labor force (neither employed or unemployed).

It should also be considered that the more individuals who live in autarky, the less society as a whole produces. The division of labor is crucial for greater productivity, and is really what leads to greater productivity (it leads to greater productivity per measurement of labor). I question whether individuals who have formed part of a society (even as small as six people) have ever lived in autarkly (some may hunt, some may pick berries, for example).

So, if anything, you see the division of labor framework I am trying to set up. To his point on human action and employment, I respond,

I agree, but then we must also agree that involuntary unemployment is impossible, in general. And, if we consider action employment (which I agree with, if we take application of labor and time as the necessary prerequisites for employment), then unemployment in general is technically impossible, because we are always employed towards some end.

This is where I deduce my greater point: there needs to be a line drawn between the general theoretical concept, and the practical concept which we can apply towards a division of labor/economy.

So, then in a later response I suggest as a crude definition of unemployment,

An unemployed person is one who’s labor is not applied towards the purpose of satisfying any perceived desires.

This is crude, and I already see one hole. It should be, “… satisfying any other’s perceived desire”, to underscore that we are talking about a specific division of labor. So, it rules out autarky (those living autarkly would not be included in the the labor force, so would technically speaking not be employed nor unemployed within the specific economy being talked about).

Is it not Utopian to believe that all the information is given and men are mere maximizers?

Let’s say person A would like to be employed for at least 15$/h, but no employer wants to hire him for that much because they cannot imagine a way to employ person A for that wage and still get benefits. Let’s assume that no one in the world knows a way to employ him profitably at that wage… but that is only true with the information that is given right now. What if some enterpreneur (due to his special alertness) thinks of a new way to employ him, paying him that much and still getting enough benefits?

Do you notice that even though with the actual information there might not exist the possibility to employ him with a benefit (and therefore we would say that it is inefficient to employ him), with new information the situation would be different.

English is not my mother tongue but i hope you can understand what i am trying to explain, what i am trying to say is that you should not assume that all the information is given.

Are you going to give a serious argument, at all?

Nope, I was bored with this thread pages ago.

Let’s say person A would like to be employed for at least 15$/h, but no employer wants to hire him for that much because they cannot imagine a way to employ person A for that wage and still get benefits. Let’s assume that no one in the world knows a way to employ him profitably at that wage… but that is only true with the information that is given right now. What if some enterpreneur (due to his special alertness) thinks of a new way to employ him, paying him that much and still getting enough benefits?

Are you trying to argue this as involuntary unemployment? (I’m sorry if I interpret you incorrectly.) If so, I agree with others that this is not involuntary, if another entrepreneur offers that individual a lower wage.

I really dont see it as voluntary unemployment, if they had that information they would voluntarily make a contract, and it is not that they are choosing not to find that information because it is not created yet.

Agreed.

I really dont see it as voluntary unemployment, if they had that information they would voluntarily make a contract, and it is not that they are choosing not to find that information because it is not created yet.

What information?

Hi Jonathan

I think you are right to note that there are several notions of “employment” possible, and we have to be clear which one we are speaking about.

Your co-blogger writes:

“In the more precise and practical nomenclature, we define employment as a specific function of a complex economy built on the division of labor. As Will rightly pointed out earlier (as I have in another post), it is clearly possible to be employed by yourself and engage in autarkic labor. This should be considered employment for reasons I give in earlier paragraphs.”

I agree with you that:

“If employment is defined as the application of labor, with other factors production, towards satisfying some end, then nearly all (or all?) human action can be considered acts of employment.”

And also that:

“This is where I deduce my greater point: there needs to be a line drawn between the general theoretical concept [of employment], and the practical concept [of employment] which we can apply towards a division of labor/economy.”

I agree. If we are going to define employment (or labor) as effort + means directed by an individual towards some end, then at this point we should simply use the general and purely theoretical term “action”, in which case employment or labor are thymological concepts (they refer to content), not praxeological concepts (lacking content).

There needs to be a line drawn between praxeological concepts—those which are purely formal—and thymological concepts—those that refer to specific content.

If we are going to maintain that we intend the concept of employment or labor in a purely praxeological and theoretical sense, then we need to show how this concept differs (in a categorical way) from the concept of action.

I am skeptical that such a conception of employment or labor will be produced.


If I may suggest why I think these problems of definition persist.

If you read both yours and your co-blogger’s accounts of the definitions of employment, you both make the distinction between individual action that is isolated, and individual action that takes place within something called ‘the division of labor.’

But by the very the standards of what we have just discussed above, when we use this term “division of labor,” we have now introduced a practical as opposed to a purely theoretical (praxeological) notion.

If we used the purely theoretical term, we would write instead: “division of action

But we don’t. We write “division of labor

Paraphrasing you:

“…there needs to be a line drawn between the general theoretical concept [of employment or labor], and the practical concept [of employment or labor] which we can apply towards a division of labor/economy.”

Thus, we can see that by introducing the concept of “division of labor” where “labor” is a practical term and not a theoretical term, we have now left the nexus of pure theoretical logical entailment. We have now introduced a specific content into the chain of logical reasoning. We have inserted a practical concept in the chain of theoretical concepts.

Here is problem in my view.

The term “division of labor” is a holdover term from classical economics that has survived in the works of Mises and others. I don’t think this term is suitable for describing the phenomena at hand.

For example, if we consider the two terms in the OP: “voluntary” (involuntary) and “employment” (unemployment), and if we think about things a little, we will realize that the common denominator of both concepts is not that they refer to “the division of labor” but that both refer to the notion of another actor.

If we think of individual action, and consider what the notions “voluntary” and “employment” (in their practical meaning) have in common from the point of view of individual action, it is that both terms refer to another actor.

It is really not accurate to hold that “voluntary” and “employment” refer in action to “the division of labor.” If we ask ourselves and others what these two terms mean, we will be given a description something like:

Voluntary: what I do is voluntarily done when I am not forced to do it by another.

Employment: I am employed when another person pays me to do something.

(again, I refer to the plain and practical sense of these terms)

It’s a stretch to conceive that these terms refer to “the division of labor.” More accurately, they refer to the notion that another actor is present to the primary actor we conceive by methodological individualism.

Because economics or catallactics is the best (or virtually only) elaborated part of praxeology, scholars are hesitant to relinquish the historical conceptions of economics. Following Mises or others then, they are continuing to have recourse to the concept of “the division of labor” as the conception opposed to individual, isolated, or autarkic action.

This distinction arises not from directly contemplating the nature of action, but rather from the habit of accepting the historically developed economic concept “division of labor” and trying to make this concept fit the phenomena under discussion.

So we keep conceiving that opposed to autarkic action is “the division of labor” or “cooperation.” It is clear to me at least, that if we are referring to the notions of “employment” and “voluntary,” that the phenomenon opposed to autarkic action is not “the division of labor,” but rather action involving another actor. That is, action in which the datum of the actor’s action is, in some sense, another actor. This is not the same thing as “the division of labor.” The notion of “the division of labor” switches us over to an empirical-practical framework of concepts, because we subtly abandon the pure concept “action” and substitute the contentual, practical, empirical, notion of “labor.”

All the concepts of direct social interaction such as voluntary, forced, honest, dishonest, coercion, cooperation, employment, labor, etc., do not refer in their essential meaning to “the division of labor” per se. Rather they all refer to the idea that there is another actor somehow present to the individual actor whose action we analyze or conceive.

When someone forces me to do something, I don’t think to myself anything about the division of labor. I think about another person. The essential aspect of non-isolated action, in the context of the concepts “voluntary” and “employment” is not “division of labor” but simply presence of a secondary actor.

This is where social theory that develops out of classical and Austrian economics is stuck. Economists continue to try to conceive non-economic (non-market) phenomena using economic (market) conceptions.


The analytical method (Menger’s theoretical exact science, Mises’s praxeology, and Hayek’s Pure Logic of Choice) is a method that takes the data of individual action and arrives at “exact laws” “a priori propositions” or “necessary truths” by demonstrating the necessary implications of those data.

Hayek:

“…the data which form[s] the starting-point for the tautological transformations of the Pure Logic of Choice. There “data” meant those facts, and only those facts, which were present in the mind of the acting person, and only this subjective interpretation of the term “datum” made those propositions necessary truths. “Datum” meant given, known, to the person under consideration.”

However, this method, arising out of classical economics and proceeding through marginal economics, was developed with an eye toward the datum of the market specifically. The method wasn’t developed such as to be able to comprehend all data of individual action, but was only crafted to comprehend market data (prices, objects of exchange, etc.):

“The subject matter of economics came to be connected with the material things that are the objects of traffic in the market; it came to be linked peculiarly with the use of money in market transactions or with the specific social relationships that characterize the market system.”

(Kirzner, writing under the direction of Mises in The Economic Point of View)

This is the nature of, for example, the conception of “the division of labor.” It is a conception that does not conceive human action as such, but rather conceives only the “economic” or “market-directed” aspect of human action.

What has occurred is that the analytical method arose out of economic (market) science, and the data of individual action it assumes is market data. But there are other data of individual action besides market data. There are things such as “ethical data” or “political data” (ethical actions, political actions, etc.) that have to do with non-market aspects of life and action. There are things such as “mental data” or “psychological data” (so-called “mental actions” such as thinking, hoping, etc.). Economics as market science was not developed to conceive or apprehend these things…

This is why problems continue to arise surrounding the use of terms such as “voluntary” “employment” and “labor.” These terms refer to the presence of another actor in individual action. But owing to the historical development of economic (market) science, we continue to attempt to conceive these phenomena, not on their own terms, and not as they appear in individual action, but through the lens of market science.

We continue to take the theoretical apparatus that was designed to draw logical conclusions about market prices, and try to apply this apparatus to phenomena of action that are not conceivable in terms of market prices or exchange ratios.

In short, we continue to try to apply economic conceptions to noneconomic phenomena.

Adam,

I feel that there is an unecessary differentiation between the concept of the division of labor and action involving another actor. Division of labor is created when the action of one individual is affected by the action of another, in the sense that action between the two (exchange of actions) is the genesis of the division of labor. The division of labor, I feel, is praxeological; it may be another name for what you are describing. I concede that oftentimes the division of labor is used to represent only market-oriented action (in the sense of accumulating material weath; which is how Reisman puts it [a position I disagree with]), but I think ultimately all action is “market-oriented” (all action is purposeful and is meant to satisfy desires).

Due to money, catallactics has entailments not contained in non-Catallactic action. Trying to collapse them is a mistake.

Hi Jonathan

I think there is a lot of overlap in what we are saying. Here, I’d like to write a few things more in the spirit of a reiteration, not necessarily as a confrontation or argument.

I know you asked Grayson to stop quoting Mises, but I would like to quote a few passages as a back-drop to our exchange here:

“There have never been any doubts and uncertainties about the scope of economic science. Ever since people have been eager for a systematic study of economics or political economy, all have agreed that it is the task of this branch of knowledge to investigate the market phenomena, that is, the determination of the mutual exchange ratios of the goods and services negotiated on markets, their origin in human action and their effects upon later action.” (HA, 3rd rev. p.232)(bold & italics added)

“The specific method of economics is the method of imaginary constructions. This method is the method of praxeology. That it has been carefully elaborated and perfected in the field of economic studies in the narrower sense is due to the fact that economics, at least until now, has been the best-developed part of praxeology.” (HA, 3rd rev. p.236)

I think this is enough background to establish that the concept of the division of labor is an economic concept—in the narrower sense—that refers to a specific realm of human activity: that sub-realm of human activity expressible in prices and exchange ratios.

If we consider as an example, a simple phone call between myself and another, we can easily conceive this as an action of mine in which another actor is present to me in some sense. But it would be a stretch to refer to my phone call as division of labor.

The reason is, the term ‘division of labor’ is a term emerging from the study of the market, not a term emerging from the study of human action in general. The historical genesis of the term ‘division of labor’ is not contemplation on the nature of a typical interaction between two people.

The historical genesis of the term, if I am not mistaken, goes back to the period of “objective” economics (the period before modern subjective economics), and it refers to the image, vision, or conception of a number of spatially related actors, each performing some different task (different stage of a given production process), such that the objective productivity of the total product is larger than the objective productivity of the total product were each of these spatially related actors to perform each of these stages himself in isolation.

Thus, the concept of ‘division of labor’ is virtually the antithesis of the conception of action involving another person which I am referring to. I’m referring to a conception where, for an individual subject (the actor we conceive by methodological individualism) another actor is present. This concept refers only to the “acting reality” of the individual actor whom we conceive by methodological individualism, and makes no reference to any objective situation.

The concept of the division of labor does not refer to an individual’s subjective belief, opinion, or attitude, that there are a number of spatially related actors, each performing some different task. The concept of the division of labor refers to an “objective situation”: an objective situation in which “really existing” (objectively existing) people produce various things in various locations.

But when I refer to action involving another actor, I’m not talking about any “objective situation” that exists in nature (the location of various people, objects, or processes). I’m talking about the data of individual action:

“It is important to remember that the so-called “data,” from which we set out in this sort of analysis, are…all facts given to the person in question, the things that are known to (or believed by) him to exist, and not, strictly speaking, objective facts.”

“…data [means] those facts, and only those facts, which [are] present in the mind of the acting person, and only this subjective interpretation of the term “datum” [makes] those propositions necessary truths.”(Hayek, “Economics and Knowledge”)

“This point of view [praxeology] makes possible the construction of chains of reasoning that are purely formal, in the sense that they refer to goods, services or factors of production only abstractly; they depend for their validity not on the specific objects with which human action may be concretely concerned, but only on postulated attitudes of men towards them.” (Kirzner, The Economic Point of View)

When I refer to action involving two people, I don’t mean that I observe two people and assume they are interacting through empty space. I mean the phenomenon of another actor appearing to or for my own action, and how that may be conceived by praxeology, by means of strict methodological individualism.

The concept of division of labor is not that concept at all. It is a concept that is descended from the objective theory of value and objective, pre-subjective economics:

“We have already pointed out that Menger and Böhm-Bawerk made statements in various passages of their writings that are utterly incompatible with the basic principles they advanced. It should not be forgotten that the two masters, like all pioneers and trail blazers, had first assimilated the old concepts and ideas that had come down from earlier days and only later substituted more satisfactory concepts and ideas for them. It is humanly excusable, even if it is not objectively justifiable, that occasionally they were not consistent in the elaboration of their great fundamental ideas and that in details they clung to assertions stemming from the conceptual structure of the old, objective theory of value. A critical consideration of this insufficiency of the work of the founders of the Austrian School is an absolute necessity, since they seem to present great difficulties to many readers who attempt to understand the theory.” (Mises, Epistemological Problems of Economics)

The same applies to the concept “division of labor.” It is a concept that expresses an objective situation, not a concept denoting a datum of the subject’s individual action.