Just last night I was on a linux support channel and the topic turned to market anarchism. I save the conversation and shared it in full. Enjoy!
(I am minty in this chat)
#linuxmint
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=-= Topic for #linuxmint was set by clem on Fri 13 Mar 2009 03:55:20 AM PDT
hi!
I just got my microphone to work
Yo
nice
- minty does victory dance
hehehe
anyway, you have to open up alsamixer and select the correct input
apparently you have to do that every time you want to use it, because it won’t remember
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but at least now I now
:o
kk
do you have a microphone?
yeahh
does it work?
but i use vista
Microsoft is an OUTRAGE!!!!!
well i use linux/bsd on my computers to
WARNING: DO NOT READ THAT IF YOU ARE OFFENDED BY RADICAL LIBERTARIANS
i have 4 off them
Hostname: kramiz.mine.nu - OS: OpenBSD 4.4/i386 - CPU: Intel Pentium III (“GenuineIntel” 686-class) 732 MHz - Processes: 40 - Uptime: 140d 11h 18m - Load Average: 0.10 - Memory Usage: 49.04MB/510.46MB (9.61%) - Disk Usage: 1.30GB/82.28GB (1.58%) - unknownmosquito hugs minty
I LOVE MISES!!!
used får irc
: )
but im going “ALL” Debian - minty is glad to find another Austrian outside of Mises-land
on servers and ws - unknownmosquito is an American?
Unless you mean
Austrian Economist
yeah
ok - PiratTejP is a Swede
yeah.. I love Mises
are you a member of the forums?
no
they have forums?!
I just read their articles a lot
on mises.org, yeah
holy snap
I need to join
almost 100% anarchist
lol
are you anarchist?
I’m Republican (in the true sense of the word, not as in the party)
off
ohh
as in, I believe in anarchy protected by law (that no one is above) and a legal system
and the NAP
NAP?
non-aggression principle
explain
(probably, but I haven’t heard the term)
Thou shalt not initiate force against thy neighbor
oh yes, very much so
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which is the only purpose of the Government
to enforce that rule
and from there it gets into a bunch of libertarian jibberish
lol
I define libertarianism like this:
In all matters of policy, err on the side of freedom.
Yes.
It’s retty simple
Yeah, it is.
I’ve converted my folks to Libertarianism.
cool
My Dad is reading Atlas Shrugged
–>| atlef (~atlef@SpotChat-361D31CF.nextgentel.com) has joined #linuxmint
I mean they were conservatives
so it wasn’t a big leap
I still think government is incompatible with liberty in every way
I feel like it’s necessary, but its role is very limited
and the people must have the capability to unseat a tyrant at a moment’s notice
every government in history has only attempted to protect the economic interests of the ruling caste.
If you have ever read Sun Tzu or Machiavelli, you kknow the government does not care about justice and never has
the fatal error of our founding fathers was not including in the Bill of Rights an amendment that stated that the government was not allowed to meddle in the economy.
the fatal error was holding the Constitutional convention at all
and forming a federal government
mm I don’t know if I agree with that entirely
Why was the convention held in secret?
I think that there is a way to have a government that self-regulates. There must be. For Anarchy cannot exist for long.
Why was it arranged under false pretenses?
Was it?
umm, they justified the meeting on the grounds of amending the articles of confederation
well.. yes.
but i think they intended on doing that, when it started
when everybody arrived, they found out it was about something else entirely
and they didn’t force the states into signing the Constitution
true
another of the biggest error: somehow the Income Tax got passed without a 2/3 ratification
*errors
Do you know why they invented the US government?
Because we don’t know anything else?
It was all about the Shays rebellion
hm
The small farmers revolted against property taxes to reward the war speculators - unknownmosquito has to read up
well.. property taxes are a crime
Samuel Adams actually said the dissidents should be executed
treason wasn’t highly regarded back then
because they were revolting against a “republic”
well.. so yes
it wasn’t perfect
and nobody is saying it was
i mean, hell, obviously it wasn’t perfect
look at the mess we’re in
this mess doesn’t come out of a perfect system
but the problem is that the “republic” has always just been a republic-leaning democracy
Treason? Is it Treason for the people to revolt aggainst their government?? If this be treason, make the most of it!
and it’s unfortunate
hehe
I though government gets its just powers from the consent of the governed
and they will kill you if you ddon’t consent
you make a good argument, good sir.
just look at the civil war. The South withdrew their consent.
well, yes.
I’m going to agree with you
so I don’t know enough about Shay’s Rebellion.
Then comes the army burning and pillaging thorugh Georgia
and everywhere els
But the Civil War, I think Lincoln should have just let them go
there was no part in signing the Constitution that said that seceding would be illegal
but anyway
good luck to you sir in your travels
and for the most part, you and I are on the same side
thanks
you’re still conservative
oh?
You called yourself republican
wel
*well
yes.
this time
im guessing you have some pro-military sentiment
to some extent, yes.
I’m OK with a standing volunteer military
especially in today’s world
You do realize the military does not defend the populace. It defends the GOVERNMENT
Look at the Civil War
look as recently as Katrina
Yes, but if the military is volunteer only, they will abandon.
the army took everybody’s guns
–>| Scit (~scit@SpotChat-5C8BFD11.dsl.sura.ru) has joined #linuxmint
Hell, you think the Union would have survived without the draft?
HI SCit, we are talking about anarchy
vs government
I don’t think that was the military so much as the police
care to join
minty: hi)
the issue is keeping the government on the side of the people
all the same, mosquito
minty: who is win?
no, it’s not the same
they are from the government, and they carry guns
minty: anarchy or government )
sort of
and they do what the government wants
the police carry smaller guns, and are from the local government
))
Scit: it depends on who you want to win
the problem with police is that they changed from investigative to “preventative” and are often treated as being above the law
minty: ok
I have a much larger problem with our police forces today than I do with our Armed Forces
Read Our Enemies In Blue for more info
… strange debate
by the way
Do you know when America had it first armed, uniformed police force?
Today “The winner day”
it was in the deep south, and they were slave patrols
)
to control the slave population
yeah, I’m aware of this
and the police as we know them didn’t show up until this century
but these are really moot points
you’re never going to be able to convince the mainstream to drop the police
or the entire military
maybe not
Taxation is theft.
For the most part, yes.
It is money taken at gunpoint.
I have a bigger problem with some forms of taxation than other though.
The argument for taxation is, to paraphrase Washington, that a just and reliable government has a right to depend on its citizens for support.
that’s fine, but…
My biggest pet peeve is property tax.
who is in a position to determine if government merits my support? Me or the government?
Right
but what do you propose as an alternative?
Donations?
market anarchy
ah, so you’re an Anarcho-capitalist.
I pay private firms to provide the service I decide I need
See now, that’s different from an Anarchist.
nothing more or less
So I’ve thought a lot about this
it’s no different at all. Real anarchy is anarcho-capitalism.
and there are a few things I don’t understand but we’ll get to that
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what about things like contracts?
Fake anarchy is where Marxisst thugs burn up a car lot
if there is no government, who enforces contracts?
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Do we hire enforcers?
private arbitration enforces contracts. Juries of our peers
but then.. isn’t that just a government?
HOLY SHIT THAT’S IT
not at all
HOLY SHIT
not
**no
that’s exactly why taxes are theft
because if two companies or individuals said “We agree to this, and LegalCorp will arbitrate,” then if LegalCorp is fair, people will keep patronizing them
and they will make a profit
yeah
right on
OK, but then what? Does that mean LegalCorp can take money from you if you break the contract at the point of a gun?
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What about for real crimes, like murder?
Who runs the jails?
Who decides the sentencing?
is that decided on based on whose property the crime is committed on?
no jails
No?
What to do with rapists and murders?
criminals shouldl work to pay their victims
*Murderers?
murderers could just be executed
or sold into slavery
in norway we pay our taxes with the knowlage that we get a very good welfare system
or–okay–locked up
I’m not OK with either slavery or capital punishment
so, i do not feel like it is theft
but still, we don’t beed government to do that
atlef, what happens if you don’t pay your taxes?
all we need is a respected court
minty, that’s basically what i was calling ‘government’ earlier
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yeah, but is there a legal monopoly, that is key
might get you some jail time
you have to have law. If you want to call the binding body a ‘government’ then call it that, but that’s the only requirement of a civilized society, is that the people agree on laws and punishments for breaking those laws.
atlef, what if you don’t want to go jail?
minty, yeah i see your point
and that is why it becomes corrupt
right
that is not possible, either jail or pay up
Mises has a mises chat room
atlef, what if you resist both? What do they do?
irc://irc.freenode.not/#mises
might hop over in a second; no one is asking about mint so we’re good for now
I just want to ask a question
We should pay more attention to preventing crime than punishing it
I’ve never met someone who can explain to me how the free market prevents rockefeller-style monopoly
they will pick you up at home or where ever they find you and drive you to jail
and it bothers me
self-defense
I’ll explain
atlef, what if you don’t let them drive you? How do they force you?
*the police
atlef, what if you defend your right to live in your house with a gun?
a monopoly needs government intervention to squash competition
what do they do?
minty, is that what was happening pre-TDR?
what do you think
I don’t know my history well enough
*happens
atlef, I want you to say it
I know what happens.
**pre-TR
they will go in with a taskforce
and take you. at the point of a gun.
you pay your taxes at the point of a gun.
yes
how is that different than being mugged in an alleyway?
that mugger might have really good reasons for taking your money
oh, wow. that is really putting it way out there
but you worked for your money and he did not. and thus if he takes it, it is theft.
if he takes it by force, that is.
and that’s the ugly truth
accept it if you will
but taxation, by definition, is theft.
no, it is not, but that is your opinion
unknownmosquito: where do u live?)
Indiana
usa?
Scit, yes
atlef, if you choose not to accept that reasoning, then that is your own sin.
you can blank out, and pretend it’s not true, but it is true.
do americans like the goverment?
Scit, some do, others don’t.
there’s a rising antigovernmental trend since Obama took office
unknownmosquito:
unknownmosquito: hm… why?
well, in the us you get few benefits from paying your taxes, here we get much back
Scit, lots of new governmental expansions. the fed is printing money, which is going to inevitably cause inflation
the gov’t just took over GM
essentially. Obama fired the CEO; if that’s not a takeover I don’t know what is.
Obama is talking about nationalized healthcare
and everyone who is sane is against it
so we do not mind paying them, but sometimes we might want them to be lower
–>| dforge (~dforge@94E5AB75.9AB219E0.11F99D8A.IP) has joined #linuxmint
atlef, if you were paying private organizations, it would be cheaper
we have that here, and it is great
because the government doesn’t have to make a profit
really?
how old are you?
do you have cancer?
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ever noticed that people come to the USA for medical treatment? Or that we have produced most of the medical breakthroughs in the last century?
This isn’t a coincidence. If we go to nationalized healthcare, the medical industry in the world is going to come to a standstill.
unknownmosquito: no, but if i would have cancer, and make minimum wages, i would get the same healtcare as the richest man
atlef, if you got it soon enough to not die.
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supply and demand
also
if I don’t like my doctor, I can fire him and find another, and if he’s a crappy enough doctor, the system will select against him, and he will go out of business
but good doctors will flourish and be rewarded for their work and their talents
in your system, your doctors are like our teachers.
unknownmosquito: in the us you need healtinsurance to get good healthcare, or?
atlef, yes and no.
if you don’t have health insurance, it can be hard to pay for health care.
But they will work with you, and they won’t turn you away if it means saving your life.
for instance
I had an appendectomy last year.
There was a morphine drip and stuff for an MRI in my system before they had my address.
well.. that might be an exaggeration
ok, it was before they had my parents’ phone number
which is important because i was on their insurance
so as far as they were concerned, i was uninsured
my Dad has decent insurance, which meant the $20,000 procedure cost him $90
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and he did not insure you, what then?
Our system isn’t perfect, and one of the ways in which it is not perfect is that it is far too easy for ambulance chasers to make money off of doctors through malpractice suits which may or may not be the doctor’s fault
gotta go