Is Civilization Evil?

Miscellaneous General
281

This thread has reached interesting levels, but I have two question for F4M:

  1. Why do you think that agriculture always means the birth of state? There have been many stateless societies(gasp), example in Iceland. Agriculture isn’t same as state.

  2. I have asked this question at least two or three times and you have never responded, but lets try again. You really love to talk about Free State Project. Do you understand, that you have made more harm to FSP than good? Before you started to flood FSP-videos and “New Hampshire is libertarian heaven”-stuff to these forums, people were pretty neutral on FSP. After you did that, only comments I have seen about FSP have been negative. If you are trying to promote Free State Project, congratulations, you have made people to hate FSP on this forum. So if you want to make your part for sucession of FSP, please stop “promoting” it.

282

Ok, so here’s what I’ve learned from this thread so far;

Civilization is less violent and thus less evil than h/g

and

Agriculture is more productive per m^2 of ‘producing’/homesteaded land and thus more sustainable than h/g

If we put these together, do we come to the conclusion that civ is more or less likely than h/g to collapse?

283

@Chydenius: Good point. I don’t think that F4M is actually representative of the FSP - here’s someone I respect (Lew Rockwell) endorsing FSP:

Clayton -

284

Oh good lord, I just read that 14-point article… The mayan 2012 apocalypse is more believable.

285

Notice the “MD,” not “PhD” before his name.

286
  1. Why do you think that agriculture always means the birth of state? There have been many stateless societies(gasp), example in Iceland. Agriculture isn’t same as state.

Iceland wasn’t stateless. iceland had tribes. Tribes are just the state in a different form.

  1. I have asked this question at least two or three times and you have never responded, but lets try again. You really love to talk about Free State Project. Do you understand, that you have made more harm to FSP than good? Before you started to flood FSP-videos and “New Hampshire is libertarian heaven”-stuff to these forums, people were pretty neutral on FSP. After you did that, only comments I have seen about FSP have been negative. If you are trying to promote Free State Project, congratulations, you have made people to hate FSP on this forum. So if you want to make your part for sucession of FSP, please stop “promoting” it.

Why should I stop? Theres way less violence here in NH then all the other places I’ve lived. I want to live in the least violent place on earth which is here.

287

think i found what inspired F4Me…

288

OK, would you say that a private property area which I own is state, if some people live there voluntarily?

You did it again, you just skipped the whole question. You have done to Free State Project more harm than good, that’s my point. Not how free NH is.

289

F4M, I have a lecture recommendation for you… it’s a little long but definitely worth listening to all the way through:

Clayton -

290
291

I’m really not sure what you don’t understand about the fact that people do not watch these videos and will not respond to them. Articulate your points using your own words. I would like to be able to tell you that by doing so everyone will take you more seriously, but we’re far beyond that point.

292

I’m really not sure what you don’t understand about the fact that people do not watch these videos and will not respond to them. Articulate your points using your own words. I would like to be able to tell you that by doing so everyone will take you more seriously, but we’re far beyond that point.

Ag lead to:

  • Poor human health

  • Overpopulation (women had more babies)

  • The state

  • Wars of conquest

  • The mess the world is in now

The only way to have a 100% non-aggressive world is to get rid of ag and revert to hunting and gathering (preferably gathering.) The root of statism and cultures of aggression is ag.

293

There is no way to have a 100% non-aggressive world.

294

Why did people choose to use agriculture in the first place, if it’s so horrible choice? And I still don’t see any nececcary correlation between agriculture and state.

295

Agriculture can be argued to be a necessary condition for the existence of the State (but it does not necessarily entail the State, which is what you are saying). The State is organized plunder of capital stocks. The State couldn’t exist prior to the Agricultural Revolution because there was no capital to plunder. Instead, at that time, most plundering was of the only valuable thing that tribes had: fertile females.

Clayton -

296

Guys, I’ve solved the problem. If we want to have an aggression free world we just need…to kill all living organisms. If there’s nothing alive to commit aggression then there can’t be any aggression.

I’m brilliant I know.

297

@bloomj

298

But the root of ag is foraging and h/g!
Oh noes! h/g leads to statism and aggression!

299

Civilization will peak by 2030

300