Is ethics/morality nonsense?

I think it is important to look at the origin of ethics and morals to gain perspective as to why they have been elevated to their mythic status. Not only do they deal with conflict as Clayton mentioned, but many originate from some sort of claimed divine revelation:

Hammurabi as God-king

Moses on Sinai

Jesus and the sermon on the mount, etc.

What better way than divine retribution to frighten an ancient, superstitious poulace to listen to your commands, and to peacefully interact with one another, so you can keep them generating tax revenue?

Now, with Humanism the dominant religion in the West (the belief in Man as lawgiver, rather than an external, divine entity) people can begin to question the existence of perfect laws created by imperfect men. Without the harking to the supernatural , laws are on their way out.

Tsk, tsk Clayton, I thought you were better than that. In your response to subjective morality, you have conflated intrasubjective consensus with objective truth. In fact you seem to contradict yourself:

I’m with you so far, then…

Isn’t the result still dependant upon an observation for validation?

@Jackson LaRose: (I’m just assuming you were being serious now, no idea whether you actually are, but I wanted to make that point anyway) I think what he meant by that was not that we have an absolute knowledge about the speed of light that can never change or that we can’t be wrong, but that an objective truth exists (whether we know it or not). A true statement about the speed of light - independent of what humans think it is - exists (again, this statement is not supposed to represent a final truth, but as close to truth as possible within the bounds of human logic which of course itself cannot be proven to be flawless, but outside the boundaries of which we cannot even attempt to argue). Our views on that don’t have to reflect our values or preferences, therefore we can try to determine the speed of light in a value-free manner.

However, with morals that is a different issue. As morals reflect the preferred ends of individuals, we can make true statements about our own perceived morality, yet still disagree about it with other people in a non-contradictory way (think of the ecos that think it’s immoral to destroy a tree and that “protecting nature” is a desirable end in itself - this is not a matter or right or wrong, but about preferences: I personally value “nature” only insofar as it serves human ends, not as an end in itself, but I can accept that other people get intrinsic satisfaction from the state of nature being a certain way - that doesn’t of course mean that I don’t try not to suffer from those people trying to enact their visions on how nature is supposed to be).

I’m not sure what Clayton’s intent was behind his last post. I simply wanted to clarify the distinction between the theoretical, objective, observer independent “Reality At Large”, and an (almost) universal agreement in regards to the interpretation of mutually perceived phenomena among a general population.

SImply put, there is distinct difference between an objective reality, and intersubjective consensus, no matter how broad that consensus may be.

I think that the term “morals” is more than a synonym for “preferences”. It also relfects (for me anyways) an absolute way of thinking. If I state,

“Murder is wrong.”

Unless there is a specified end in which murder would not be an effective means, than the statement is completely open-ended. To me, that seems to imply that under any circumstance, the act of murder is off the table. In this way, moral statements are implicitly claims of knowledge of the absolute. In any scenario that could ever occur until the end of time, Thou Shalt Not Kill!, because it will always be the incorrect action to undertake. It is Wrong. Making the inverse, not murdering, Right. Therefore, one who does not murder can be considered Righteous.

This is the distinction between two parties disagreeing in regards to preference, and two righteous parties disagreeing about absolute Truth.

It seems to me that objective morality is incoherent and non-sensical. We, as Austrians, should realize (and I think Clatyon established this) that all valuation is subjective. Values are related between an object/action and its perceived utility, so it is necessarily mind-dependent, not mind-independent (Mackie’s Argument from Queerness, basically no value is “inherent” in anything). This reminds me of a Shakespeare quote: “Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.” Okay, we’ve established that value is determined subjectively, now what makes it “morality”? One of the key classical features of morality is that it applies to everyone everywhere. If it doesn’t do that, then why call it morality?

The thing I don’t get about ethical subjectivists is that when you reduce ethics to the individual, why not just call them individual preferences? Of course they could hypothetically be both a preference and moral at the same time, but I see no need for the moral attachment. The problem is that they still want to hang on to right and wrong. The thing with moral nihilists is that they are just as nihilistic towards morality as they are with objective taste standards. They don’t deny taste and they don’t deny beneficial social behavior, they just deny that one ought to perform a certain social behavior and I tend to agree with that sentiment, since there is no basis in reality for an objective reason to do anything.

However, like I said, this doesn’t negate valuation and since we all share many of the same values, it’s something like morality. We can still argue about what we as society want in a way that is rational, but if you’re looking for that pie-in-the-sky objective morality, you won’t find it. I tend to think that might makes right as well. If you take psychological egoism on its face (which is another topic altogether) any action we take is inherently the action we want, thus it is to some degree selfish. So the action we take is dependent on our brain states and physiology, so to tell us that we ought to do something else is a pretty demanding claim.

Another point to make is how do we know what is truly right or truly wrong? There is a looming epistemological issue here. If we’re limited by our perspective and different cultures share many different, ritualistic values, then I don’t see how there is a lot of common ground to work with. Any society to have advanced this far obviously doesn’t support killing, lying, etc. so I’m not talking about those. But I’m talking about the sorts of stuff like caning in Singapore. The people who enforce that have been conditioned to believe caning is a fair punishment while we in the West view it as somewhat barbaric. How do you know it is not us who have been “brainwashed”? Basically morality is just a social control. Whatever gets a society to not harm itself in the long run will be effective, even if they have differing standards of justice.

Even saying all of this, assuming we share equal values, discourse on how to go about actualizing these values does not disappear overnight or anything. We can still have the debates about government intervention and all of that, just realizing that we are arguing for the maximization of subjective utility for the most members possible (because for whatever reason, that’s what we value). You can still make arguments from the self-ownership axiom because while ownership is also decided subjectively, most people will assume that we own ourselves and that we can work from there. So Rothbard was onto something, he was just reaching for objectivity. Of course every Marxist thinks that collectives are fulfilling and moral while libertarians think fending for yourself is. It’s what the individuals want disguised and sugar-coated to make it look like one system is dominant over another and to try to influence you into thinking like they do. Not that I have a problem with it, it just is what it is.

Morality is the attempt to execute a list of DOS and DONTS by an individual for himself at the place of event in which he does not have any direct self-interest. One may borrow some items of that list from others when he doesn’t bother to put his own analysis into the matter. One may modify and expand the list based upon his policies which he makes based upon his experiences.

When one is placed into a situation where one or more persons are doing mutual actions, he will perform his action with them based upon his evaluation of what will benefit him more only if he is involved into the situation. There he will just make choice from his preferences. But if he is not involved into it, then doing or not doing any action with them appears to have no ordinal values to him. Morality comes to play in this state of mind of his.

He who does not bother doing any action where he does not have his benefit, will consider morality a nonsense; only preferences will matter to him. He who feels urge (for whatever reason - psycological or any other factor) to participate in a event where he does not have direct benefit of participation or loss of non-participation, will act according to his morality.

  1. Objective morality is nonsense. (Usually when people say “morality is nonsense” they are referring to what is more precisely termed objective morality, because of the stubborn tendency for people to want/hope/think that their own subjective moral sense is universal.)

  2. Subjective senses of something feeling “right” and “wrong” (i.e., producing certain types of negative or positive physico-emotional reactions) are of course quite real for most people.

  3. Morality is important even for those who realize this, because people’s sense of right and wrong can be used to persuade them.

1. Objective morality is nonsense. (Usually when people say “morality is nonsense” they are referring to what is more precisely termed objective morality, because of the stubborn tendency for people to want/hope/think that their own subjective moral sense is universal.)

2. Subjective senses of something feeling “right” and “wrong” (i.e., producing certain types of negative or positive physico-emotional reactions) are of course quite real for most people.

3. Morality is important even for those who realize this,

I hope that clears some things up for those that think the “morals are bogus” crowd dont think morals exist.

So you said almost the same in other words. I’m ok with this. I am also aware, that morality “do not exist” as some divine right/law. It comes from society, sure, or interactions between individuals. Well, that’s how I see it. It is a consistent, logical and universal law. If moral theory is very arbitrary (I say “very” because there will always be grey areas, exceptions etc) and/or doesn’t apply to all people, then it flawed.

So in other words.. objective truth do not exist, there is impossible to find what is right and wrong action, logic is subjective, science is only “faith” yada yada yada.

My point was to show, that this consensus is very important point of morality. If there is no consensus what “amount” is number 2, like someone to whom 2 and 2 equals 5, because to him this 5 is like to us 4. If you get what I mean.

MaikU: The point is: If the majority thinks that 3+3=7 (not talking about the meaning of the words, but about the logic), that doesn’t make it so. If you take 3 sheeps and add another 3 sheeps, even if a majority thinks that you would have 7, you will still end up with 6 sheeps. Now, the majority wouldn’t think that (at least in our time), because it’s very easily disprovable, but the point is still that logic is in this sense independent of subjectivity. That doesn’t mean that individuals can’t get it wrong, of course, but that a “right” and “wrong” exists. But with morality, just as with preferences in general, you cannot make that right and wrong distinction: Even if the majority values 2 apples higher than 1 banana, that doesn’t mean that 2 apples are intrinsically more valuable than 1 banana. The same with murder: You prefer murder to non-murder. The majority would agree with you.

But that doesn’t make it any less subjective; even if the majority agreed that 2 apples are more valuable than 1 banana, that doesn’t make it an objective fact (even though it would be reflected in prices of that society, it is still a preference, not a truth and any person may have a different value scale which would of course not be “wrong”), but just a predominant opinion.

What you can also derive from that is that notions of morality cannot be extracted from or discovered by a priori reasoning, because they are a matter of preference and therefore depend on the individuals’ preferences in the society.

Yeah, not really. See my response to you.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present the Humanist:

"Law is not granted by the divine. Man is capable of grasping Truth, therefore has become the giver of law.

The number “2” is merely a symbolic representation of a phenomena. It must presuppose agreement between users of the Indo-European numeric system as to what that funny squigle represents.

If instead, you are referring to the observation of amounts of items, consider the following scenario.

Two individuals are in a room counting the same set of items. They compare the results of their observations:

Person #1: Four

Person#2: Five

Given this information, which person is observing the “true” amount of items? What further information would you require to make a determination? Would you need to see the amount for yourself? Perhaps if there were more observers, a clear majority opinion would emerge. Would that be sufficient to convince you of who was “right”? Perhaps some sort of scientific experiment could be constructed to observe. Are these sufficient methods of determining “true” from “false”?

Logic is directly dependent on observation. Without observation, there is no knowledge. Without knowledge, there is no reasoning.

For you. But there are objective truths that exist whether you percieve/know of them or not; gravity, for one.

2. Subjective senses of something feeling “right” and “wrong” (i.e., producing certain types of negative or positive physico-emotional reactions) are of course quite real for most people.

If there is such a thing and it is called an “ethic”, it can not be expressed in any formal meaningful way in language. It is outside the scope of the logic and language world. There can be no ethical propositions. It would at best be a “practiced art” and can not be spoken of.

I can not bring Dvorak’s 9th symphony as a proposition to any meaningful discussion in philosophy as it is outside the scope of language. More over language when used as arguments in the aesthetic over such a thing are equally meaningless (people can not say, and bring up unequal propositions of what makes the symphony “good” or “bad”).

Once again, it may be important, but it is important nonsense.

Does morality/ethics have to be about valuations or preferences?

Read: “in this sense”. I’ve repeadetly stated that I’m not talking about absolute truths, but about the closest to that possible within the human mind. Objective simply means value-free and therefore valid for logic in all human minds. Mathematical logic is in this sense objective, valuations like prefering a good over another or prefering a certain set of moral actions to another are not.