Is it morally okay to join the military?

[DanielMuffinburg]

@Poptech

@Daniel

Are you saying that a contract to trade real estate for stolen property is valid?

But there was no government to enforce property rights when the property was “stolen”.

What are you talking about? The US government itself stole the resources it used to obtain Hawaii. What didn’t the US government protect us from that?

@Poptech

It seems that the anarchist system failed to protect property rights and the party with the stronger military prevailed.

It seems that the minarchist system failed to protect property rights and the party with the stronger military prevailed.

[wilderness]

@Saan

1. Loss of your moral compass(the ability to distinguish right from wrong)

This is a grand analysis. Did I say grand! It is not simply of the military, but I think what coercion in general does. The more a person is forced to do something the less their actions are decided upon, deliberated upon, and no psychologically registered affirmation as to whether it is good or not good - happens. The persons actions in such instances are contingent and what is good or not good hangs without an inclination one way or another. It is perpetual intellectual immaturity where somebody else is their adult model leading the person into a moral hazard. And if they do, do wrong - hopefully somebody is around that does know the difference between what is right and wrong and can steer the person away from making a mistake.

I would like to hear more about what lead you to state this conclusion. I seriously find this to be superbly enlightening. I wonder if any writings are available that deal with this specifically.

[Saan]

Vaclav Havel: The Power of the Powerless. I don’t agree with everything he says, but the man is superb when it comes to metaphysics and moral agency.

Jesus, Buddha, Mohamed: The message is there, later men corrupted it.

Gary North. It’ll cost ya 15 bucks a month, but he put me on the right path.

There are more, I can’t remember right now. Have to dig through the library to give you more specifics.

[Saan]

Did I say thank you, no. Well, thank you.

[wilderness]

cool thanks!

this idea of liberty where there is no coercion is full of life, creativity, and is the entrepreneur spirit.

this reminds me of the story when Zhuangzi was fishing and messengers of the king sought him out, found him, and asked if he would come and advise the king. At the conclusion of the story it went something like this:

Zhuangzi asked, ‘Does the king still have the ancient dead turtle shell rattle?’

The messengers of the king responded, ‘yes.’

Zhuangzi then said, ‘I am happy staying where turtle’s are alive leaving their tail marks in the mud.’

[Saan]

You reminded me. Sun Tzu. The art of War. Though he describes how to perfect it, it is clear he understood how to suborn the soldier.

[onebornfreedotblogsp]

@Anocter

I am a libertarian and thus believe that the military presence in Iraq and Afghanistan does a vast amount more harm to America than good. Nonetheless, I want to join the Air Force for the benefits of education and salary.

Would the $90,000 or so that I would collect over the next four years, as well as the education money, be a tax or the result of a tax on Americans? Is there an argument here that the government would collect that money anyway, and taking it for myself only means it doesn’t go to some other areas of government, like how Ron Paul asks for subsidies? Even if that were so, would the government allocate more to the military over time because of my enlistment?

My opinion on foregin policy: I believe it’s incredibly clear that foreign presence and intervention make us less safe. In 2007, a poll revealed 51% of Iraqis believed that violence against Coalition forces was acceptable, and that number was 17% in 2004. I read in Paul’s manifesto book that experts on bin Laden and top military officials sum up anti-US sentiment with something like “they hate us because we’re over there.” They also hate us for our alliances and financial support to other governments, but extremist recruitment would infinitesimally smaller if they couldn’t point to alleged U.S. crimes in their neighborhoods. This quote from Wikipedia sums it up well:

According to the Chief of the British General Staff, General Sir Richard Dannatt, speaking in September 2007,

“

The militants (and I use the word deliberately because not all are insurgents, or terrorists, or criminals; they are a mixture of them all) are well armed – probably with outside help, and probably from Iran. By motivation, essentially, and with the exception of the Al Qaeda in Iraq element who have endeavoured to exploit the situation for their own ends, our opponents are Iraqi Nationalists, and are most concerned with their own needs – jobs, money, security – and the majority are not bad people.[3]

My next question is, does enlisting in the military when it is already too large make the United States less safe?

First of all, personally I would never freely join the military, [or indeed any organization that would want me as a member!] - I’ve devoted my adult life to becoming “an army of one”.

However,since nobody can live your life for you, and you must bear full responsibility for the consequnce of your all of your actions, and since your morality is unique to you and only you, no one can tell you that it is morally right or wrong to do whatever you choose to do - or rather they can but they are seeing things from their unique perspective and filtered through their own morality.

Ultimately, as with anything else in your life, you must make up your own mind about this matter.

Military Vets?

My advice would be to first talk to as many military veterans as possible before making a final decision - and while I’m sure you can find plenty still parroting propaganda about their service, I’m sure that if you look [particularly on the internet] that you will find plenty of vets who have a somewhat different "take"on the real consequences of active service .

“Anarcho”, or at least “Libertarian”, Vets?

Perhaps you can even find/talk to /email some “libertarian” “anarcho” vets.

The ex military writer on Lew Rockwell, Fred Reed might be a good place to start from this angle.

Good luck with your search and decision, whatever it might be.[:D]

[onebornfreedotblogsp]

@Anocter

I am a libertarian and thus believe that the military presence in Iraq and Afghanistan does a vast amount more harm to America than good. Nonetheless, I want to join the Air Force for the benefits of education and salary.

Would the $90,000 or so that I would collect over the next four years, as well as the education money, be a tax or the result of a tax on Americans? Is there an argument here that the government would collect that money anyway, and taking it for myself only means it doesn’t go to some other areas of government, like how Ron Paul asks for subsidies? Even if that were so, would the government allocate more to the military over time because of my enlistment?

My opinion on foregin policy: I believe it’s incredibly clear that foreign presence and intervention make us less safe. In 2007, a poll revealed 51% of Iraqis believed that violence against Coalition forces was acceptable, and that number was 17% in 2004. I read in Paul’s manifesto book that experts on bin Laden and top military officials sum up anti-US sentiment with something like “they hate us because we’re over there.” They also hate us for our alliances and financial support to other governments, but extremist recruitment would infinitesimally smaller if they couldn’t point to alleged U.S. crimes in their neighborhoods. This quote from Wikipedia sums it up well:

According to the Chief of the British General Staff, General Sir Richard Dannatt, speaking in September 2007,

“

The militants (and I use the word deliberately because not all are insurgents, or terrorists, or criminals; they are a mixture of them all) are well armed – probably with outside help, and probably from Iran. By motivation, essentially, and with the exception of the Al Qaeda in Iraq element who have endeavoured to exploit the situation for their own ends, our opponents are Iraqi Nationalists, and are most concerned with their own needs – jobs, money, security – and the majority are not bad people.[3]

My next question is, does enlisting in the military when it is already too large make the United States less safe?

First of all, personally I would never freely join the military, [or indeed any organization that would want me as a member!] - I’ve devoted my adult life to becoming “an army of one”.

However,since nobody can live your life for you, and you must bear full responsibility for the consequences of all of your actions and how you will feel about them in the future, and since your morality is unique to you and only you, no one can tell you that it is morally right or wrong to do whatever you choose to do - or rather they can but they are seeing things from their unique perspective and filtered through their own morality.

Ultimately, as with anything else in your life, you must make up your own mind about this matter.

Military Vets?

My advice would be to first talk to as many military veterans as possible before making a final decision - and while I’m sure you can find plenty still parroting propaganda about their service, I’m sure that if you look [particularly on the internet] that you will find plenty of vets who have a somewhat different "take"on the real consequences of active service .

“Anarcho”, or at least “Libertarian”, Vets?

Perhaps you can even find/talk to /email some “libertarian” “anarcho” vets.

The ex military writer on Lew Rockwell, Fred Reed might be a good place to start from this angle.

Good luck with your search and decision, whatever it might be.[:D]

[Juan]

Fred Reed has a series of pro-cop articles that would make any self-respecting libertarian want to throw up on the spot. His take on the military is also pretty ambivalent.

[Saan]

@onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom

However,since nobody can live your life for you, and you must bear full responsibility for the consequences of all of your actions and how you will feel about them in the future

This is correct.

@onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom

and since your morality is unique to you and only you, no one can tell you that it is morally right or wrong to do whatever you choose to do - or rather they can but they are seeing things from their unique perspective and filtered through their own morality.

and this is garbage

Read up on moral agency. This is not correct. Morality is in fact objective. Your valuation of it is the only thing that is unique to you and only you. This argument does not hold up to reductio ad absurd um. My morals tell me that killing one woman a week is the only way to happiness and enlightenment, and furthermore that I should also kill those who do not believe this. That moral is rather immoral wouldn’t you say?

[onebornfreedotblogsp]

@Saan

@onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom

However,since nobody can live your life for you, and you must bear full responsibility for the consequences of all of your actions and how you will feel about them in the future

This is correct.

@onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom

and since your morality is unique to you and only you, no one can tell you that it is morally right or wrong to do whatever you choose to do - or rather they can but they are seeing things from their unique perspective and filtered through their own morality.

and this is garbage

Read up on moral agency. This is not correct. Morality is in fact objective. Your valuation of it is the only thing that is unique to you and only you. This argument does not hold up to reductio ad absurd um. My morals tell me that killing one woman a week is the only way to happiness and enlightenment, and furthermore that I should also kill those who do not believe this. That moral is rather immoral wouldn’t you say?

Your rudeness will not be tolerated. There will be no further communication with you from myself.

Private Messaging

Any one else [excluding “Saan” “angurse”, “Poptech” and “nirgrahamuk” ] who wishes to respond/discuss the points I tried to make in my post to the thread starter and is prepared to do so in a civil, courteous manner can private message me and I will be more than happy to try to answer their questions/observations etc.

[Libertarian_for_Life]

@onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom

@Saan

@onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom

However,since nobody can live your life for you, and you must bear full responsibility for the consequences of all of your actions and how you will feel about them in the future

This is correct.

@onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom

and since your morality is unique to you and only you, no one can tell you that it is morally right or wrong to do whatever you choose to do - or rather they can but they are seeing things from their unique perspective and filtered through their own morality.

and this is garbage

Read up on moral agency. This is not correct. Morality is in fact objective. Your valuation of it is the only thing that is unique to you and only you. This argument does not hold up to reductio ad absurd um. My morals tell me that killing one woman a week is the only way to happiness and enlightenment, and furthermore that I should also kill those who do not believe this. That moral is rather immoral wouldn’t you say?

Your rudeness will not be tolerated. There will be no further communication with you from myself.

Private Messaging

Any one else [excluding “Saan” “angurse”, “Poptech” and “nirgrahamuk” ] who wishes to respond/discuss the points I tried to make in my post to the thread starter and is prepared to do so in a civil, courteous manner can private message me and I will be more than happy to try to answer their questions/observations etc.

Saan had an extremely valid point and did not respond rudely at all

I don’t know what your problem is, but I guess you can’t take criticism so there is no point in anyone trying to have a conversation with you.

[onebornfreedotblogsp]

@Libertarian_for_Life

@onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom

@Saan

@onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom

However,since nobody can live your life for you, and you must bear full responsibility for the consequences of all of your actions and how you will feel about them in the future

This is correct.

@onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom

and since your morality is unique to you and only you, no one can tell you that it is morally right or wrong to do whatever you choose to do - or rather they can but they are seeing things from their unique perspective and filtered through their own morality.

and this is garbage

Read up on moral agency. This is not correct. Morality is in fact objective. Your valuation of it is the only thing that is unique to you and only you. This argument does not hold up to reductio ad absurd um. My morals tell me that killing one woman a week is the only way to happiness and enlightenment, and furthermore that I should also kill those who do not believe this. That moral is rather immoral wouldn’t you say?

Your rudeness will not be tolerated. There will be no further communication with you from myself.

Private Messaging

Any one else [excluding “Saan” “angurse”, “Poptech” and “nirgrahamuk” ] who wishes to respond/discuss the points I tried to make in my post to the thread starter and is prepared to do so in a civil, courteous manner can private message me and I will be more than happy to try to answer their questions/observations etc.

Saan had an extremely valid point and did not respond rudely at all

I don’t know what your problem is, but I guess you can’t take criticism so there is no point in anyone trying to have a conversation with you.

“Saan had an extremely valid point and did not respond rudely at all”

If you believe that then we probably don’t need to be talking to each other either .[:(]

Either way, we will just have to agree to disagree on that.[the rudeness or not of the response].

My offer still stands- if you or anyone else [excluding those already on my “no fly list” ]wishes to have a civil discussion on the issue at hand [ the morality of military service- not where I personally draw the line on conversational message board etiquette] , PM me .

Otherwise, “have a nice day”.[:)]

[Saan]

@onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom

@onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom

and since your morality is unique to you and only you, no one can tell you that it is morally right or wrong to do whatever you choose to do - or rather they can but they are seeing things from their unique perspective and filtered through their own morality.

and this is garbage

And this is incorrect. Better?[:'(]

[liberty_student]

@Juan

Fred Reed has a series of pro-cop articles that would make any self-respecting libertarian want to throw up on the spot. His take on the military is also pretty ambivalent.

Fred Reed is a fun read (pun intended) but he’s clearly not a libertarian, and certainly not a radical libertarian. I do enjoy him playing the curmudgeon however. He is a talented author.

[Juan]

Fred Reed is a fun read

Yes. And I’d say he’s skeptic regarding government. But sometimes he rubs me the wrong way =P

[Saan]

So oneborn, you wanna give the morality discussion a go or what. I’ll do my best to refrain from using words such as garbage. I’m assuming of course that is what offended you. I can understand that. I posted a correction. Shall we engage?