I’ve gotten in plenty of political conversations before. They are always off the cuff with facts and reasoning from the top of my head. I usually don’t do too good. But, thinking this approach over, there is one conversation I want to be very well prepared for…
A friend of yours wants to join the army. What do you say to stop him? What points would you suggest that should be brought up?
I think the most effective method of dissuading someone is determined largely by the first man’s reasons for wanting to do whatever the second man doesn’t want him to.
In other words, it kind of depends on why he wants to join.
I simply asked a friend who wanted to join the military “Are you okay with working for an organization that kills women and children?” Making him face that hopefully at least planted a seed of doubt.
You pay taxes to it, and walk on its roads. Probably a bunch of other things, too. Same difference?
No, those things are forced upon you. I certainly wouldn’t fault someone who is conscripted into the military.
There is nothing inherently dishonorable in soldiering as an occupation. The trouble is that the world’s militaries operate in an accountability vacuum. They kill innumerable innocents without consequence. Liability is not enforced on national militaries, primarily because by its very nature it cannot be. The problem arises from the military’s ample public subsidy and alliance with a territorial monopoly on law. Until these issues are addressed, militaries will continue to be inherently aggressive rather than inherently defensive and the occupation of soldiering will continue to be filled primarily by nihilistic sociopaths, people that would have ended up on death row had they instead led a completely private, civilian life.
Clayton -
They’re only forced upon you in that they’re your best options. Use their roads or starve. Where do you draw the line? Suppose it’s use their roads or be homeless. Or use their roads or be very poor. And so on. Ultimately, the line is determined by your moral compass. If you trust that your friend is basically a decent person, it’ll probably be fine for him to join the army.
That’s downright irresponsible reasoning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=J4SrziRCqyE
http://www.examiner.com/human-rights-in-national/eighteen-vets-per-day-commit-suicide
Clayton -
Telling them that they’re a corporate pawn may not be the best way to convince them otherwise (since humans tend to be extremely emotional thinkers). My guess is that they’d take offense to it, but the truth hurts sometimes. I would probably start by asking their opinions on the wars and then telling them that the U.S. is going to continue in fighting aggressive wars; and while they get a number of perks for joining the military, the amount of arbitrary war that the state gets involved in could wind up getting them killed for no real reason.
Clayton,
Well, shit, that’s different. I thought that Scrooge was criticizing the moral element of joining the army, especially given his response to me. The psychological effect it will have is a different matter.
That makes absolutely no sense. The force he’s talking about is the force of taxation that is used to pay for the roads…not the fact that using them is the best way to get around.
And “their” roads? We just got through saying how it is “we” who paid for them.
@Coase: OK, you’re half-way there… as a non-expert, can you venture a guess on why the psychological effect of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars is so incredibly large? This isn’t our first time around the block with this. About 40 years ago we were enmired in a very similar sort of conflict… we know why Vietnam veterans were so psychological traumatized by their experiences there. They were participating in what was often wholesale slaughter, fish-in-a-barrel situations and the post-WWII advances in military training had begun to overcome the usual moral red flags that stopped soldiers from pulling the trigger in the past (see Lt. Col. David Grossman’s book On Killing for more information). We are dropping GPS-guided multi-ton munitions on mud-brick buildings in residential neighborhoods so close that our own soldiers are occasionally hit by them. The body count in Iraq is well over a million. Do the math; the kill-ratio is insane. I remember a news item about a year or two back where we snuffed an entire wedding party in Afghanistan. We’ve got Army units being investigated for planting weapons (it’s called a “drop weapon”) on dead bodies they know weren’t combatants in order to reduce paperwork and avoid questions. And, as always, whatever we get to find out about is just the tip of the iceberg. Both my brothers-in-law have been deployed to Iraq and one of my high-school buddies was deployed there during the initial push into Baghdad and saw the worst of it… I can tell you he’s not the same person I grew up with. I don’t know exactly what happened over there but it’s permanently messed him up.
Clayton -
Show your friend these:
Wow. Those are powerful.
Anarcho-libertarian: HOW do you post the embedded video???
Here’s a recent National Guard ad… creepy as a step-uncle with nothing but a trenchcoat and boxers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr8rBhfys40
Compare to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-hYSDz8EoQ
Both impart that same feeling of anticipation of an epic spectacle. That particular movement of Carl Orff’s Carmina Burana is very creepy and weird. I’ve listened to the other movements of that piece and this movement stands out from everything else like it was just “inserted” into the piece. Very odd. Composed in Germany during the rise of the Nazi party (though no direct Nazi affiliation that I know of). Still creepy.
Clayton -
Clayton, click reply on my video post to see exactly how. And note that the share link under Youtube videos which says youtu.be/blahblahblah doesn’t post. Copy the video link that has .com in it on the address bar.
Love the propaganda comparison. Loyalty, duty, and honor to mein fuhrer!
I certainly wouldn’t fault someone who is conscripted into the military.
I don’t understand this. If someone is conscripted, they are free to engage in civil disobedience. Jail is still an option available to them. I think it would be more honorable to go to jail than join the army in such a case.
@Sukrit: Easier said than done. Ft. Leavenworth is not a happy place.
Yes, I really want to. but I have heard that this one is really very costly, for a simple person