If so how divided is the opinion?
Technically the states are still sovereign in Europe and membership in the EU is voluntary, so there is no meaningful debate over states rights. They have all their rights.
Oh my. Where have we heard this one before? I wonder when Europe’s own war of secession will start.
but how split is it for people who want more centralization vs decentralization. Is the centralization side viewes as more progressive and the in thing to do or is it not that simple.
First of all, continued EU membership is not “volountary” since there exists nolegal way to secede. It has never even been concieved as a possibility.
In propaganda, the EU is only about decentralization. The EU is free trade, free mobility of citizens and sub-national regionalization (even across state borders). But of course, nothing of this could be possible without the by far largest bureaucratic apparate in the world, and a few billion of euros tax money thrown into that, could it? And to make all this decentralization decision making rational, the EU badly needs a “constitution” which centralizes everything to a tax extorting, president lead EU super government. Still, of course, the EU will be ALL about decentralization, peace, harmonization of “markets” and all that kind of bullshit, of course! Just give away your money, and your guns, or else the EU will murder you in the name of depeacful centralization, or did I mistype that?
The UK is the main opposition against subordinating itself under EU slavery. Most likely, the UK government has deliberately destroyed its own currency just in order to motivate, by economic terror, its enterence in such slavery soon.
Hard-working, plain folks realize that the EU is ripping them off and have become cynic about it. The whole mainstream media spectrum is openly in favor of a strong central EU, calling it a “historic opportunity” and “uniting what belongs united”. There is no meaningful opposition against EU centralization within the political spectrum either. Intellectuals are cheering for it as well, hoping that some court jester jobs will be created for them to occupy in the process.
A few groups like UKIP or Libertas are criticizing EU centralism, but they appear to be fringe minorities. Plus, what EU state-libertarians tend to call “limited government” would probably nauseate every adamant US conservative (e.g., free market economics has almost completely been abandoned in favor of a “social market economy”, whatever that’s supposed to mean).
Why would it? The states keep all the guns.
I’m writing from Spain. No division in here. Suggesting that the EU is a nonsense idea, automatically takes you to the same group of some of the most well known fascists. Funny enough, in Spain there are some regions with independency aspirations, namely the Basque Country and Catalonia –although difficult to know how many people support that. Basque – curious mix of marxists and catholic-democrats- and Catalan nationalists claim their right to secession. Spanish nationalists claim their right to be united. In the meantime, both sides spend huge amount of money in promoting Basque or Catalan language, and Spanish language in the typical government way of wasting money in doing one thing and the opposite, in this case helped by the complex network of decision levels in Spain, where one geographical point can suffer decisions from even up to 7 different levels for the same topic.
Well, sorry for making the short story long. Even though Basque and Catalan nationalist want to be the ones deciding their future, they share one thing in common with Spanish nationalists, both of them agree to be part of a European paradise of centralized government –except marxists, but that is a different story. Basque main nationalist party issued a plan for being independent from Spain but still belonging to the EU.
Why? I guess that for the same reasons why most of people ask for more intervention, an effective socialist propaganda, a hidden Oedipus complex, fear to think by themselves, who knows.
In the case of Spain the amount of EU money received in the last two decades is huge –the same in Portugal, Greece and Ireland. Many farmers are subsidized by EU funds, high speed trains, highways, airports, are build with some percentage of funds coming mainly from Germany, Netherlands, Sweden, Austria. Up to 2013 eastern European countries will be the big winners, especially Poland. Why Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden, Austria accept this situation is something probably more related to Psychology than to Economics.
Even though, there are some positive signals such as rejections of the European Constitution and later the Lisbon Treaty by France, the Netherlands and Ireland. But don’t be too optimistic. In the case of France, probably most of the voters demanded more government, less capitalism.
Good point. See, for example, Irish Friends Vote NO For Me!:
This Treaty will govern the future workings of the European Union and, like the European Constitution refused by French and Dutch voters in 2005, it will set the course of a neo-liberal, free-market Europe in exactly the same way. The social needs of European citizens are not taken into account. Instead of respecting the wishes of Europeans for a democratic, social, peaceful and ecological Europe, this treaty sets the neoliberal EU agenda in stone.
Capitalism evil neoliberal free market. Yawn.
Ola Ho Pin… pretty much every nation-state of Europe has an area aspiring to either indepency or greater autonomy. I have been an autonomist/secessionist most of my life so I know the many issues pretty damn well.
The EU at the moment is nothing more than another level of bureaucracy coming into being (think “devolution”). It’s also a good scapegoat for local politicians: “we need to comply with EU legislation, we cannot do anything about that so don’t even bother protesting”. Two other problems with the EU spring to mind: first there’s no withdrawal clause. Technically once you are in you cannot get out. Second, all of the member states signed the Helsinki Convention, hece supporting the right to people’s self determination. But the while the EU is very generous with far away countries seceding (East Timor anyone?) it tends to be a bit stingy with local autonomists/secessionists if not downright hostile.
The underlined sentence has become kind of mantra. And unfortunately, it works, whatever they mean for “social needs”.
Scapegoat: Absolutely, when new regulation is proposed, nº 1’s argument in favor of the proposal is “Europe is doing it like that” or “there is a man in Brussels -no name, no face, it doesn’t matter- forcing as to do this, and, hey, it’s about Europe, so it should be for our own benefit”.
And the double speech on secessionism is everywhere. Even at a pro-secession level. For instance, many Catalans support independency, but there are some areas in Catalonia that themselves ask for more autonomy -it is minor, perhaps even tiny, but it exists- and they are sistematically ignored by nationalist parties.
I hope that sooner than later, some countries will try to raise the issue on withdrawal. Norwegians should be laughing at us.
It is perfectly legal to leave the EU, where did you get that from?
It is. One thing is that there is no procedure established in the current law, but that does not mean that it is not possible.
Actually, it has happened. Not an independent country, but Greenland left the European Economic Community fed up with the burocrats making a mess with the fishing rights.