Is this colonialism, or even imperialism?

A fellow Austrian and myself have been discussing ‘what if’ the international situation gets consistently worse and the 21st Century becomes another century of Socialism.

I’ve been thinking that the only approach would be to take a large group of Libertarians, probably with the help of a Private Military Contractor, and take over a failing state (probably an African one) with pre-existing infrastructure.

Now the question is; could or would this be considered by other Austrians as Colonialism or Imperialism? The obvious answer apears to be yes, tbh, but if it becomes impossible to recreate Libertarianism in the United States or Classical Liberalism in say, Great Britain, would it be justified to create a Libertarian state via the means I have suggested?

This is not the free state project; it is an invasion by outside forces to liberate a country, just abnormally. The question really is if it could ever be justified?

The initation of force is never justified according to my ethical system. I suspect most people around here would agree.

I don’t disagree but if the entire world is Socialist is there no alternative?

It would be colonialism in the best sense of the word, taking failed or primitive societies and transforming them into working societies.

In fact there’s no reason why you have to wait for another century of socialism to do that. You can start doing business in Africa right away. The Chinese are already doing it.

Against people who have no law, the initiation of force is fully justified.

It’s an interesting question. I think however that it wouldn’t make sense to conquer a state if anarchy is the desired outcome.

Otherwise, you’re basically defending the (overt) rationale for the American Empire and it’s quest to bring Democracy to the world.

Now if people bought up a lot of land, and brought in private military to defend that land (I’m talking 1000’s of acres), that would be ok.

In reality, the only way to defeat the socialist state is education.

Good point.

how about I add the caveat ‘except for purposes of self defense.’ In that case one might have to act to defend himself from people who have no law?

Was it self-defense for the Spanish to conquer and colonize the Aztec empire?

Of course not. How is this relevant?

Edit: Oh, i see. Because they have no law? When i said that i was still engaged in the OP’s thought experiment about the whole world being socialist or whatever.

There’s nothing wrong with the empire’s expansionism, what’s wrong is that it attempts to impose unnatural laws on the people it adds to the empire. Those unnatural laws create social chaos.

That is the worst delusion we could possibly suffer from. Russian socialism went on for decades after everyone knew it didn’t work. The only way to defeat socialism is action.

We’re talking about the benefits of colonization. Why was it wrong for the Spanish to conquer and colonize the Aztec Empire?

If an invading force provides a people with a greater degree of freedom than their previous government had, what exactly is the contention?

The people of North Borneo were free-er under the white people than they were under their own leader, the Sultan of Brunei, whose domain at that time was legally recognised as most all of Borneo. He imposed arbitrary taxes (although, according to my father, paid a heavy price for trying it), disregarded the rule of law, and was generally a tyrant. The British administration was the reverse.

Isn’t it the value of a Government - if one must exist - that determines whether its rise to power is rightful, not who runs the Government or how it came to rule? I would much rather be ruled by an American libertarian who annexes Britain than a European socialist who rules it ‘democratically.’

Didn’t Mises always say that it ought to be the ends, not the means, that are examined?

Because it was an iniation of force by the spanish?

I think this depends largely on the context. Are the people of the region asking for help? What kind of invasion are we talking about? A violent military invasion that kills off the government and says “okay we’re going to have a libertarian one now people!”?

Monopolized law and defense and institutionalized theft and coercion is not something i see value in.

I can’t say I’ve ever read that, can you find a quote?

Are you sure the Spanish shot first?

I suppose not.

a. Do you think those would exist in the extent you seem to believe in a libertarian country?

b. Does that mean that the Government of Switzerland is equally as bad as the Government of North Korea?

It was Hayek, actually. I will try find one at some point but its 3am, so, not immediately.

You’re right, no, I’m not. I thought it was a safe assumption to make, considering they were enroaching on the Aztecs’ territory. What exactly are you arguing here? That invading and colonizing uncivilized cultures is okay?

Except that an empire by definition is a state.

I thought so to. But our numbers are puny. Remember, you’re one of the “we’re being coerced, so we can’t do anything” guys.

There is a lot of educational work that needs to be done. We’re headed in the right direction, but now more than ever is the time to push back.

If you have ideas, PM them to me or post them. I want to leave the world freer than I found it, if such a thing is possible.

Why do you think I ‘believe’ in a libertarian country? And yes, monopolized law and defense and institutionalized theft and coercion are what makes a government a government. You might have a different definition of a government, in which case we may be arguing semantics.

No. It means that all governments are fundamentally immoral, regardless of their level of respect for human rights and the amount of freedom they allow.

I think this thread had a good idea.

Precisely yes.

Liberty is about respect for property rights. It is wrong to take from someone, but it is not wrong to take from no one in particular.

It was not wrong for the spanish to overthrow an empire that literally fed on its slaves in religious rituals and replace it with its much milder form of serfdom.