Ludwig Von Mises vs. Milton Friedman? PLEASE HELP ME

I have read some works by Milton Friedman, Ludwig Von Mises, Adam Smith, and Ayn Rand; and they all seem to be correct!

What are the primary philosophical differences between these individuals, especially Milton Friedman and Ludwig Von Mises.

Furthermore, what distinguishes that Austrian School from classical-liberal economics, or free-market economics?

I am a thinker and a student of history, political science, trends, and international relations, but economics is my weakness. I intuitively know that free market economics is correct, and history demonstrates that. But within the very general “free-market economics,” what are the different variants? What are the great debates between free market economic thinkers? What are the different schools of economics that consider themselves to be free-market oriented?


I am seeking to start a private equity fund with the intent of “betting” against the commercial real estate and retail sectors in the United States. As the basis of our business plan will be rooted in economic theory to justify why betting against these sectors through short-selling etc will be feasible, I must fully understand why these sectors are doomed to collapse. I need some answers fast.

I believe that economics, as with most mathematical problems, has one correct answer and many false answers. I do not view economics as matter of different opinions, but rather as a science in which there is one correct school of economics with all others being incorrect. I am a firm believer in the power of the free, deregulated market to sustain a high standard of living and elevate societies from poverty to wealth. I blame the actions of government for the current economic crisis (manipulation of interest rates, high taxes, federal reserve system, abolition of gold standard, inflationary spending etc.).

What I am getting at here is this: I intuitively know that the answers to our current economic crisis can be found in the literature and philosophies that support free market economics. However, within free-market economics and/or libertarian economics are many different variants. In seeking to predict future trends one must adhere to the correct school of economics. Are there are free market economists or thinkers out there that can explain to me some of the different schools of economic thought within ‘free-market economics’ and give me the differences between them? Can anybody provide me with a compelling argument for a single school of economic thought within laissez-faire economics that is the most accurate school thus conceived of?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to respond to this post of just email me.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Stephen Estes

University of Southern California

I’d give this a read for a summary on how the Austrian school differs from other free market schools. With regard to the classicals, George Reisman has attempted to fuse their work with the Austrian School, in case you’re interested.

What will you pay for them?

So let me get this right. You are going to start a private equity fund, to bet against a market, without knowing why that market is doomed to collapse.

You could probably get a job at the FED.

What you believe is wrong. So we have ruled out what you believe, and what you know. What is left?

A better question would be, “why should anyone provide you with a compelling argument?”

You join, presume we owe you answers, for your own commercial gain, demand them quickly, oh, and be sure to email them.

You want a free lunch so you can get rich quick.

Liberty Student,

Perhaps I worded my post in an offensive manner. (And apparently everything I know is wrong. Thanks for that one.)

Here is what I do know. Market forces are greater than the power of the government to alter them; and right now the market is spiraling, like a wave: first the mortgage bubble burst and we have seen a decline in consumer spending. This decline in consumer spending has consequently produced a decline in retail sales. This decline in retail sales will inevitably lead to a decline in commercial rents, the decline in rents will lead to a decline in commercial property values. At the same time credit card companies will face astronomical levels of defaults and late payments. Thus, the next logical bubbles to burst will be the retail sector, the commercial real estate sector, the credit card sector, and ultimately the US dollar.

I am an investor, not an economist. I see forces on the move that will inevitably produce and destroy great fortunes and I was simply seeking some empirical data and scholarly insight into the science behind these forces.

You did, and it’s true.

I listen to Gerald Celente interviews too.

How can you invest in an economy, without knowing economics? Sounds to me like you’re a speculator, not an investor.

Well, you won’t find that here. There are no secret Austrian mathematical models or forumulas. The Austrian school is based on praxeology, which is the study of human action. While we could make reasonable guesses at the future, we also understand that man has free will, and the collective calculation of a national, let alone global economy is beyond our capacity to comprehend.

We’re not about fast, slick answers, models and formulas. If you want to learn economics, there are no shortcuts. If you’re interested in making a fast buck, there are hundreds of forums filled with people who will tell you things they do not know, and share facts that are simply untrue.

At least once every two weeks, some guy comes on here and wants to know how to get a good mortgage, how high gold will go, or how to invest. While some folks here have an interest in that, Mises.org is about spreading the scholarship of liberty and rational economics, not forecasting market trends for economic gamblers.

So by all means, sit down, take off your hat and stay awhile. But if your motive is to get reassurance or confirmation for your venture, we’re simply not here for that purpose.

Thanks

Science is the effort to discover and increase human understanding of how reality works.Once one gains an understanding of how something works (whether is is a car engine or a global economy), one can theoretically predict future behavior.

I did sit down, I am staying a while. I am going to browse this site until I have read everything relevant.

I have taken basic college courses in micro and macro economics (and I seek to further that education indefinitely). I have also taken a course titled “the Nature of Scientific Inquiry.” What I gained from that course was an understanding of what science is. Science seeks to create understandable models that can explain complex events and forces. The ultimate goal of science is understanding followed by prediction. With a basic understanding that Earth revolves around the sun and is stuck in its orbit through gravitational forces, we can say with near certainty that Earth’s orbit around the sun will continue for the forseeable future.

Why should economics be any different (is is at least attempting to be a science)? Unfortunataly, I think you may have a tainted view of the purpose of the field of economics. If it does not exist to come up with models that can help predict future events, than what is the point of “economics?” What good is understanding, without making use of that understanding to help shape, or at least prepare, for future events. I know that the Austrian School of economics, or at least Ron Paul who claims to subscribe to the Austrian School, predicted this crisis long ago based upon the actions our government was taking then. So why should we not attempt to foresee what tomorrow has in store for us based upon the actions our government is taking today, coupled with market forces.

There are no easy answers, or quick answers. I understand that. I am seeking enlightenment.

I understand that you know a lot more about the Austrian School than I do. You regard me as a greedy, entitled, short-sighted fool. I do not take that personally. Putting aside what you may think of me, do you , LIberty Student, reccommend any particular article for me to read that gives the run-down on Austrian Economics in comparison to other schools?

Read Murray N. Rothbard. You’ll soon see why… [;)]

I accidentally pressed ‘suggest this as an answer’ when I tried to hit reply if anyone is wondering.

I don’t personally know a lot about the Austrian School of Economics other than a little reading here and there, but I’m under the impression from what I have read that it focuses more on human nature (which is often irrational, and often hard to predict) than the nature of an economy itself. Under the current system, you will not have an easy time predicting the economy that well because it’s not based on market principles, but relies too heavily on the impression that people will act with absolute reason. Sometimes the system will work, and sometimes it wont.

I think that this community recognizes that if you want to predict the economy, you need a system based more on capitalism and markets than on state intervention. To judge the future of the economy based on mathematics and theorums when the system works heavily with the state (which contributes emotional forces into the equation) is impossible.

While Ron Paul has certainly been right about a lot of things in regards to the economy, he hasn’t been right about everything. In his own words, he is suprised that the economy has stabalized itself for so long. There are so many factors and variables in our system that it becomes very hard to predict future outcomes, and it’s not always going to be doom and gloom, and it wont always be sunny and nice. It can be the extremes and it can be in the middle.Though our current system can’t sustain itself forever is obvious. When it fails however is anyones guess.

However, like I said, I’m no expert and haven’t done enough reading into it. If anyone more versed in Austrian Economics finds fault with what I’ve said, please correct me.

When you create the computer model that can record in real time all human action please get back to us. The computer illiteracy rate is astonding.

The predictions you can make are more generalized. Such as people will generally do what is in their own self-interest and government intervention in the economy only makes things worse. The when, where and how much is much more uncertain.

The fact that you use a subjective word such as “greedy” only proves you have no remote understanding of economics.

This is not true. You are implicitly assuming the constancy principle. You can assume this in the physical and biological sciences - a planet, a stone, a cell, etc, will always react the same way to the same stimulus. Humans are different. Humans can choose what they do. This means that empiricism (which presupposes the constancy principle) is inappropriate for economics. This invalidates all schools of economics other than the Austrian school, since all other schools are empirical. The Austrian school is the only one that recognises the nature of human beings. It recognises that economics is a branch of praxeology: the study of the logical implications of the axiom of human action.

Your definition of science is far too narrow. Science is simply organised knowledge. It can be either empirical (physics, biology, etc) or axiomatic-deductive (mathematics, logic, praxeology). It sounds like your college course completely ignored axiomatic-deductive science.

Not quite. It’s not the current system which is hard (impossible) to predict. It’s human actions. Even if we had a free society, we could still not make predictions with any accuracy or confidence. Economics is not about predicting the future.

You can’t know what you do not know, so while you believe that prediction to be accurate, it’s impossible for you to know what unknowns could alter it.

I really think you would benefit from exposing yourself to Nassim Nicolas Taleb.

I do, but not for reasons you already understand. I’ve seen guys like you in business before. One in one million makes it, and that one because he is lucky, then he immediately establishes a confirmation bias that his success means he knows what he is doing.

Don’t destroy capital by gambing, and don’t tell people you are a free marketer. That looks bad for all of us.

If you follow guys like Jim Rogers or Peter Schiff, they are into longs more than shorts. Because they understand that while AE gives insight into the performance of markets, even statist markets, they also know it is impossible to time markets. This is also why Ron Paul makes accurate predictions, without giving dates. It’s all fun and games when you give Schiff your money, and then the dollar rallies, you get hosed, because we might be 5 or 10 years from a dollar collapse, not as soon as his media performances seem to indicate.

From what you’ve written, sounds like you have a lot of unlearning to do first. It’s more important to understand economics than to understand what schools there are. The question is, are you learning because you want to understand and profit in a general sense, or are you only interested in understanding for this particular scheme and profit motive?

The point of economics is to understand that some things cannot be modeled, to sort out what is known from what is unknown, and what is true from what is false. Personally, I like economics because it helps me better understand the world. I’m engaged in less economic activity, but more responsible and sustainable activity.

I don’t know of any. But why not just learn what AE is? I don’t think you will be able to make an intelligent analysis by consulting a checklist. Knowledge is not like grocery shopping. Skipping straight to conclusions without understanding is precisely what I have been talking about. Do the work. It’s an investment into your life.

The article i provided does summarise the core differences, but I agree he should learn by reading the main body of Austrian theory for himself.

Whether you did or did not, I owe you an apology. I’ve been too difficult with your request and it was inappropriate.

Me being relativly new to this stuff empahtise with Stephen. Stephen go to the bookstore check out some of the books for beginners and start there.

Hey Steve,

there is a big difference between Friedman and Mises. Friedman believed that a fiat paper money system can be managed by a central bank using a formula. Mises on the other hand would disagree with this. Mises believed that a money system should only be based on comodities–that being gold and silver. Friedman, also believed that the govrnment had the right to impose a fiat paper system on its citizens. Something that Rand and Mises would disagree with. Friedman once in and interview made himself the distinction between his and Rand’s concept of what a violation of a right was. He said that while he believed that it was immoral for one citizen to violate the rights of another citizen, Rand believed that it was immoral to force anyone to do anything–citizen to citizan and government to citizen. You see, Rand believed that the government had no right to tell the people what to use as money. This is why Friedman made the distinction between his view and Rand’s view of a violation of rights. In order for a paper system to work, it has to be imposed by law, which Ayn Rand saw as coerisive and therefore wrong. If the government stayed out of the business of making money, then the people would naturally turn to prescious metals as money. Friedman, was a free market man that, i believe made the mistake of thinking that a money sytem could exapand at a rate forever.

@Stephen: I think the general answer to your questions is, “economic ideas don’t help us predict the future, they really only help us understand what happens, in hindsight.” Now, this isn’t completely true, since we can predict that, for example, rent control measures will result in housing blight. But what we can’t predict is how market participants will respond to rent control measures, in detail. Maybe a city passes rent control but then a major real estate interest moves in and lobbies city council and repeals the portions of the rent control measure that mattered while leaving the “window dressing” to appease the masses. So, it’s not enough to look at the superficial news of the day and draw conclusions like, “San Francisco passed a rent control law, so economics tells us that we will certainly make money shorting stocks of major real estate interests in San Francisco.” It’s just not that easy.

liberty student has pointed out Taleb (I haven’t read his book Black Swan but I have watched interviews and read some of his articles) and Taleb’s diagnosis of most people’s portfolios is that they are way over-exposed to risk. As he puts it*, we have dentists who spend as much time day trading as they do drilling teeth… but dentists should be drilling teeth and leaving the day trading to day traders. If you are a professional investor, it may make sense to expose your assets to greater risk than the man on the street.

However, keep in mind that your assets are always at greater risk than they superficially appear to be. I learned this lesson at the price of about $4K back in the dot-com bubble. I invested all my assets (about $8K) into the NASDAQ in April 2000 (very tip-top peak of the tech bubble). I sold a few years later (needed the money for bills), losing about 50% of my assets. This was my first, very painful foray into the market. Not only did I overexpose myself by “going all in”, but I was exposed to risks I didn’t even know I was exposed to (inflationary bubbles).

Inflationary bubbles are far from the only “hidden risk” in the market. Take insider trading, for example. Insider trading is a chimera invented by state-monopolized stock exchanges. In reality, insider trading is a privilege enjoyed by the elite but which is denied to the common market participant. Insider trading is really the whole point of having an exchange, like a stock exchange. By using early information for profit, information is dispersed into the market as rapidly as possible. If stock exchanges were a truly competitive industry, I doubt that insider trading would get you excused from an exchange. Yet the very fact that not all participants are, in effect, prohibited from insider trading greatly increases the risks of investing in the stock market for those who are not on an inside track.

Take the BP stock, for example. Someone posted on here about a month or two back that they had $100K in assets and their stock broker had advised them to buy some BP stock. I recommended that poster fire his stock broker immediately! Look at the BP mess… you have a mysterious explosion, you have political jiu-jutsu going on between Washington and London over a connection between BP and the Lockerbie bombing (this sounds like CIA-leaked intelligence to me), and then there’s all this arm-wrestling going on in the media between two competing interpretations of the spill, one minimizing and the other maximizing the consequences of the leak. And a stock broker is recommending that a commoner buy into this stock that is obviously being played by insider Whales???

The two-tiered nature of the political/legal system creates a system of personal privilege. As George Carlin put it, “It’s a big fuckin’ club and you ain’t in it!” When you venture out into the market, you should do so cautiously and skeptically. You should assume that anything that anyone says is a self-serving pump-and-dump lie, even (or especially) if you paid for it. Remember that no other commoners have any better idea about insider actions than you do. To avoid stepping on insider landmines, steer clear of heavily politicized markets and industries except where you can logically identify a “sure thing” (and the BP disaster is an excellent example of something that is not a “sure thing”). I recommend Marc Faber’s reasoning regarding the inevitability of imminent, massive inflation as a model of this sort of reasoning. He basically looks at the economic/political situation as if he were the government and identifies all its options to get out of its current financial problems. He then eliminates each one-by-one leaving only one possibility: inflation! Betting on inflation is simply speculating that the government will predictably do what it cannot help doing. This approach is can be applied to any market situation by simply putting yourself in the shoes of the actor you are analyzing and determining his options. If you can eliminate all but one option, then it’s a safe bet he will take that action and it might make sense to bet on that, especially if you can identify a reason that other market participants are deluded (inflation is one of the best examples because of the widespread success of central bank propaganda).

You really have to be a student of all aspects human behavior, not just voluntary exchange (economics). It’s not enough to identify “one right school of economics”. I see no reason you should artificially restrict yourself to Austrian economics… the primary value of Austrian economics is in rightly understanding money and banking, in my opinion. When it comes to the rest of economics, Austrianism doesn’t say things that are that wildly different than what everybody else says. Economics provides no shortcuts… studying it will only show you that much more firmly why there are no shortcuts.

Marc Faber and Jim Rogers are two investors that epitomize the sort of “student of humanity” approach to investing that I find attractive. Rogers has personally traveled a large part of the world, on the ground (not just jet-setting through the big cities). He uses this “down in the trenches”, unvarnished understanding of the world-as-it-is-rather-than-as-it-is-presented-to-be to come to his own conclusions about who is really doing what and why. There are innumerable opportunities to make money in the market doing honest trading without “insider information”, if you are circumspect enough to steer clear of the traps and landmines that make state-monopolized exchanges far more dangerous than private, competitive exchanges would be.

Most important, stay humble and know what you know… your losses will remind you of what you thought you knew but did not. Your profits are the reward for careful study and prudent exchange.

Clayton -

Maybe it was Marc Faber… but pretty sure it was Taleb

Stephen:

I completely agree that commercial real estate in the US is doomed but REITs have been ridiculously resilient. Before you do consider shorting them I’d recommend reading this lengthy but excellent piece: http://www.zerohedge.com/article/conundrum-commercial-real-estate-stocks-cre-“near-depression”-why-are-reit-shares-still-so-h

By the way, if you are starting a private equity fund and require an equity/commodity/bond/ analyst let me know.

  • Chris

You can’t beat the market!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_walk_hypothesis