Methodological Dualism: a debate between Neoclassical and Lilburne

This thread is for Neoclassical and myself to debate the soundness of methodological dualism. As with my debate with Rettoper, only the two debaters can post in here. Other members are welcome to post a sidelines thread. But Neoclassical and I are not to engage in debate over this topic outside this thread until this debate is over. I would note that I recognize that my opponent seems much more well-read in epistemology than I am. Nonetheless, his position seems to me to be untenable, so I would like to grapple with it.

So, Neoclassical, how about simply this?: “Methodological dualism is the only sound approach to the pursuit of knowledge.”

Me in the affirmative, you in the negative.

Hello, Grayson! Thanks for the challenge! I hope both of us learn from each other.

Your first declaration is that “methodological dualism is the only sound approach to the pursuit of knowledge.”

My first objection is that “methodological dualism” presupposes substance dualism, an archaic leftover from Descartes. I contend that the human mind is a material process, wholly explicable in physical terms. Furthermore, genuine knowledge cannot be generated by viewing the human mind as Mises did: an undetermined thing with radically different properties than the rest of the universe.

Due to rapid progress in neuroscience in the last decades, I believe a correction must be made to an epistemic worry Mises had. He stated that “all that we can infer from it is that science-at least for the time being-must adopt a dualistic approach, less as a philosophical explanation than as a methodological device.” For the time being, Mises may have been right (although I would even dispute that). However, currently, neuroscience has advanced far enough to explain many features of the “mental” process, debunking many long-held fictions, such as free will. As Mises stated, “We may or may not believe that the natural sciences will succeed one day in explaining the production of definite ideas, judgments of value, and actions in the same way in which they explain the production of a chemical compound as the necessary and unavoidable outcome of a certain combination of elements. In the meantime we are bound to acquiesce in a methodological dualism.” We no longer need to acquiesce to methodological dualism.

Mises actually relied upon an unquestioned empirical theory. Folk psychology is an empirical theory about human behavior, embracing concepts such as “belief” and “desire.” Mises used such terms to explain and predict behavior (at least within economic situations). But I contend that as science advances, such concepts (e.g., “hope”) will be reduced to purely physical terms (explained within neurobiological or computational terms, probably both). Thus, folk psychology will more and more be recognized like the concept of “center of gravity”–a useful fiction for everyday discourse, but not illuminating for genuine knowledge. That is, human behavior can and will be more fully be explicated in physical terms.

As Francis Crick, the Nobel prize-winning scientist, said in 1994, “You, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules.” As science advances, more and more of human behavior can be explained as such, within the “panphysicalism” that Mises conceived as inapplicable to our species.

To reiterate, I hope to emphasize two points in my rebuttal:

  1. Mises actually relied upon an empirical foundation, folk psychology.
  2. His stated possibility that science might, one day, explain human behavior within a physicalistic framework has come to fruition: we now can.

Hello, Grayson! Thanks for the challenge! I hope both of us learn from each other.

Likewise.

This post will address the content of your post concerning neuroscience.

My first objection is that “methodological dualism” presupposes substance dualism, an archaic leftover from Descartes.

That is incorrect. Yet, it is a common misconception, which has befallen even Austrians here.

From the section of Human Action you quote (emphasis added): “We may fairly assume or believe that they are absolutely dependent upon and conditioned by their causes. But as long as we do not know how external facts–physical and physiological–produce in a human mind definite thoughts and volitions resulting in concrete acts, we have to face an insurmountable methodological dualism.”

“For the time being, Mises may have been right (although I would even dispute that). However, currently, neuroscience has advanced far enough to explain many features of the “mental” process, debunking many long-held fictions, such as free will. (…) We no longer need to acquiesce to methodological dualism.”

As I’ve written in another post:

“Methodological dualism isn’t resorted to because we don’t know WHETHER actions are determined. Even if it were proven that actions are indeed determined, so long as we do not know WHICH actions will be caused by WHICH factors, we still must resort to methodological dualism. It is not enough to know THAT firing neurons lead to choices. For a scientist studying human behavior to practice methodological monism, he would need to know WHICH circumstances regarding the firing of neurons would lead to deciding to compose a symphony, and WHICH circumstances regarding the firing of neurons would instead lead to deciding to read a book. So long as we can’t accomplish such a mind-boggling feat as that, the only way of studying human behavior that makes sense is by considering humans as acting beings with minds, wills, and intentions.”

Also, here’s something I wrote that’s been sitting in my Google Docs to maybe someday include in a primer to Austrian social science:

There are two ways of thinking about things and the causes of change in the world. One can think of things as material beings which undergo mechanistic change. Or one can think of things as mental beings which undergo purposeful change. In our lives, we think in both ways all the time.

For example, imagine on a windy day, you see a rock roll down a hill into a creek. You might think that happened because the rock was knocked loose by the wind and that gravity pulled it down into the creek. You probably would not think it happened because the rock felt dry and purposefully rolled into the creek.

But imagine you see a man covered in dirt calmly walk down that same hill, and into the creek. You probably would think that happened because the man wanted to wash the dirt off of himself and so he purposefully walked into the creek.

We think of things and the causes of change in those two ways all the time. Now there’s an important difference about the rock and the man. We generally only think of the rock in terms of material being and mechanistic change, and never in terms of mental being and purposive change (unless we are superstitious). However, we can think of the man in both ways. For example, if the man did not walk down the hill, but instead was lying limp on the wind-blown hillside before rolling down the hill with his eyes closed and his arms and legs limp, we would not think he was trying to take a bath. Instead we might think he was dead, unconscious, or otherwise disabled. Even if we thought of him still as a mental being (if we thought he was awake but paralyzed through the ordeal), we don’t think of the change as being a function of his having a mind, or as being an incident of purposeful behavior. We would think of the change as being a function of his having certain bodily features (susceptibility to gravity, etc) and as being an incident of mechanistic change.

Now some people think that in order to inform our own decisions with regard to the behavior of others, it is more useful to think about even purposeful behavior in material/mechanistic terms. For example, some people might say that even in the case of the man walking to the creek, it would be more helpful to think of his behavior as being caused by the mechanics of his brain. Light bounced of the creek and into his eyes, which caused a chain reaction in his brain, which ultimately triggered the muscles in his legs to walk toward the creek.

Thinking of the man’s behavior in this way may have certain limited benefits, depending on one’s goals. For example, if your goal was to make sure the man reached the creek, understanding that the man’s ability to walk depended on him having a functional brain would inform your decision not to strike him in the back of the head in an attempt to speed him along down the hill.

However, there would be certain purposes for which thinking of the man’s behavior in material/mechanistic terms would not be enough. For example, let’s say you wanted to decide whether it would be worth your trouble to try to sell the man some shampoo. Thinking of the man as a mental being and his trip to the creek as purposeful behavior, would obviously help in this decision. The man being caked in dirt, you could reasonably suppose that the man is indeed purposefully working toward taking a bath, and that he would be interested in something that would facilitate his endeavor. Or let’s say the man is not dirty, but instead exhibits the symptoms of severe dehydration. You would probably not pester this man by shoving shampoo in his face, but instead perhaps hand him a bowl to help him drink the creek’s water.

How would thinking of the man’s behavior in material/mechanistic terms help in this decision? Let us say that you know that his decision to buy your shampoo depends on the way his neurons fire. If you can’t see how his neurons are firing, this knowledge is useless to you. Even if you could see how his neurons were firing (say you had a brain-scanning device on his head), if you don’t know which neuron-firing pattern would cause him to desire shampoo and which would not, this knowledge is still useless to you. And even if you knew that, obviously it would have been better to think of the man’s behavior as mental/purposive than to go through all the trouble and expense involved in reading his neurobiology.

Furthermore while it may be possible for neurobiology to predict human behavior to a limited degree, that degree is indeed extremely limited. For example, if you knew that the only two possibilities are 1) the man is going to drink water or 2) the man is going to stand in the creek until the dirt is washed off of him, a brain scan might settle the matter quite readily. A brain scan might generally register much more frenetic activity in a body shutting down due to lack of water than in a body which is not. But in real life, the possibilities are generally not so limited, and the neural activity is not nearly so easy to discern. Neurobiology is nowhere near being able to say anything useful about a man’s decision to pick out of a shelf a volume of Plato or a volume of Aristotle, whether he will compose a a sonata or an etude, or whether he will design a truss bridge or a suspension bridge. Still less can it say anything about a man’s behavior when a great deal more than two eventualities are possible.
The intention of this book is to convince readers as decision-makers to adopt a certain general code of conduct with regard to the rest of humanity as decision makers.

Now what is the best way to think about humans as decision makers, specifically with regard to taking into account their behavior in order to inform our own decisions? There are two ways of thinking about things and the causes of change in the world. One can think of things as material beings which undergo mechanistic change. Or one can think of things as mental beings which undergo purposeful change. In our lives, we think in both ways all the time.

For example, imagine on a windy day, you see a rock roll down a hill into a creek. You might think that happened because the rock was knocked loose by the wind and that gravity pulled it down into the creek. You probably would not think it happened because the rock felt dry and purposefully rolled into the creek.

But imagine you see a man covered in dirt calmly walk down that same hill, and into the creek. You probably would think that happened because the man wanted to wash the dirt off of himself and so he purposefully walked into the creek.

We think of things and the causes of change in those two ways all the time. Now there’s an important difference about the rock and the man. We generally only think of the rock in terms of material being and mechanistic change, and never in terms of mental being and purposive change (unless we are superstitious). However, we can think of the man in both ways. For example, if the man did not walk down the hill, but instead was lying limp on the wind-blown hillside before rolling down the hill with his eyes closed and his arms and legs limp, we would not think he was trying to take a bath. Instead we might think he was dead, unconscious, or otherwise disabled. Even if we thought of him still as a mental being (if we thought he was awake but paralyzed through the ordeal), we don’t think of the change as being a function of his having a mind, or as being an incident of purposeful behavior. We would think of the change as being a function of his having certain bodily features (susceptibility to gravity, etc) and as being an incident of mechanistic change.

Now some people think that in order to inform our own decisions with regard to the behavior of others, it is more useful to think about even purposeful behavior in material/mechanistic terms. For example, some people might say that even in the case of the man walking to the creek, it would be more helpful to think of his behavior as being caused by the mechanics of his brain. Light bounced of the creek and into his eyes, which caused a chain reaction in his brain, which ultimately triggered the muscles in his legs to walk toward the creek.

Thinking of the man’s behavior in this way may have certain limited benefits, depending on one’s goals. For example, if your goal was to make sure the man reached the creek, understanding that the man’s ability to walk depended on him having a functional brain would inform your decision not to strike him in the back of the head in an attempt to speed him along down the hill.

However, there would be certain purposes for which thinking of the man’s behavior in material/mechanistic terms would not be enough. For example, let’s say you wanted to decide whether it would be worth your trouble to try to sell the man some shampoo. Thinking of the man as a mental being and his trip to the creek as purposeful behavior, would obviously help in this decision. The man being caked in dirt, you could reasonably suppose that the man is indeed purposefully working toward taking a bath, and that he would be interested in something that would facilitate his endeavor. Or let’s say the man is not dirty, but instead exhibits the symptoms of severe dehydration. You would probably not pester this man by shoving shampoo in his face, but instead perhaps hand him a bowl to help him drink the creek’s water.

How would thinking of the man’s behavior in material/mechanistic terms help in this decision? Let us say that you know that his decision to buy your shampoo depends on the way his neurons fire. If you can’t see how his neurons are firing, this knowledge is useless to you. Even if you could see how his neurons were firing (say you had a brain-scanning device on his head), if you don’t know which neuron-firing pattern would cause him to desire shampoo and which would not, this knowledge is still useless to you. And even if you knew that, obviously it would have been better to think of the man’s behavior as mental/purposive than to go through all the trouble and expense involved in reading his neurobiology.

Furthermore while it may be possible for neurobiology to predict human behavior to a limited degree, that degree is indeed extremely limited. For example, if you knew that the only two possibilities are 1) the man is going to drink water or 2) the man is going to stand in the creek until the dirt is washed off of him, a brain scan might settle the matter quite readily. A brain scan might generally register much more frenetic activity in a body shutting down due to lack of water than in a body which is not. But in real life, the possibilities are generally not so limited, and the neural activity is not nearly so easy to discern. Neurobiology is nowhere near being able to say anything useful about whether a man will pick out of a shelf a volume of Plato or a volume of Aristotle, whether he will compose a a sonata or an etude, or whether he will design a truss bridge or a suspension bridge. Still less can it say anything about a man’s behavior when a great deal more than two eventualities are possible.

“Mises actually relied upon an unquestioned empirical theory. Folk psychology …”

Praxeology is distinct from every kind of psychology. Praxeology spells out the logical implications of end-seeking behavior. It says nothing about whatever phenomena may lie behind those ends.

But praxeology is empirical in a sense, because it does rely on experience. But it relies on the experience of reflection, not the experience of the senses.

For all I know, you may be a fiction in a fevered dream, or a freak coalescence of particles in an infinite universe that made my macbook manifest seeming evidence of a fellow purposive being. But if I know anything, I know what action is. With every sentence I write in order to challenge your contentions, I live it. I know intentionality, ends and means. Should I try to deny intentionality, means and ends, I find myself caught in the manifest absurdity of trying to deny the reality of trying.

Furthermore, as a neoclassical, I presume you accept the law of diminishing marginal utility. When I reason carefully about the evident notions of action, means, and ends, I can derive that law in my mind. If panphysicalism is as ready from prime-time as you say it is, shouldn’t you at least be able to discover such a basic element of neoclassical economics using neurobiology? Has anybody ever done so?

Many people have seen flying witches, but I discount their claims. Likewise, I am not sure what “trying” is in a non-physical sense. Could you satisfactorily explain “trying” without appealing to natural science?

My point is a little more simple: neoclassical economics, its whole mentalistic baggage, can be reduced to more physicalistic terms, if one wanted to do so. Austrian economics forbids this according to methodological dualism, which asserts an unbridgeable gap between natural science and the human mind.

To address your “law of diminishing marginal utility,” I consider it an empirical theory that can be disproven by counterevidence, such as by a real instantiation of Nozick’s utility monster. As Rothbard stated of the “disutility of labor,” It is not deducible from human action because its contrary is conceivable, although not generally existing.

I consider this untrue. Methodological dualism, by its very nature, claims to have access to the human mind in a psychological sense–otherwise it would just be natural science, right?

In my ideal study of behavior, I would observe the input and the output of a human subject, attempting to understand the entire process intelligibly (from sensory stimuli to the sound waves emitted from the subject’s mouth). This is a Quinean behaviorism, a methodology at odds with dualism. So, clearly, Mises added something more.

To understand this more sharply, you will agree that Mises used the term “satisfaction.” By that term, what did he mean?

Do you believe these are pragmatic fictions?

If we enlarged a human brain, Grayson, and took a tour within it: we would find the electrochemical mechanics of neurons, synapses, and so on. If we enlarged it even more, we would find the movement of molecules.

I contend that we would only see mechanistic, determined movements. There would be no break in causality. One movement triggered the next.

Now, what do you make of free will? Does it exist or not? If so or if not, what consequences are present for the Misesian notion of “choice”?

Likewise, I could claim that souls are what animates living creatures. This can be explanatory: it can differentiate such beings from inanimate ones, like rocks. However, the problem is that it can blind us to still greater possibilities, like the truths of biology.

Methodological dualism can lead to accurate predictions; I don’t doubt it. I, however, find it to be a bit too constricting. To be clear, I consider your defense of methodological dualism (Austrian economics) to be a rejection of empiricism.

I also want to compare methodological dualism to an empirico-mathematical methodology by contrasting what fruits have grown from each.

To quote Caplan, Here are a few of the best new ideas to come out of academic economics since 1949:

  1. Human capital theory
  2. Rational expectations macroeconomics
  3. The random walk view of financial markets
  4. Signaling models
  5. Public choice theory
  6. Natural rate models of unemployment
  7. Time consistency
  8. The Prisoners’ Dilemma, coordination games, and hawk-dove games
  9. The Ricardian equivalence argument for debt-neutrality
  10. Contestable markets

Are you able to comprise a similar top-10 list for Austrian discoveries since 1949?

Many people have seen flying witches, but I discount their claims.

What does that have to do with what we’re talking about?

Likewise, I am not sure what “trying” is in a non-physical sense. Could you satisfactorily explain “trying” without appealing to natural science?

Are you not trying to show that I’m wrong? Do you not have intentions in typing these words? If you recognize that you are and that you do, then you know what trying is in a non-physical sense.

Just because you are reporting to me an experience of “trying” no more proves its truth than testimony about witches.

What I am suggesting, and what I think most have missed, is that what you consider “self-evident” is actually theory-laden; what we introspect is largely determined by our folk psychological framework, which must be considered an empirical theory, as revisable as any other. I contend that folk psychology is irredeemably flawed and will be lost in scientific discourse, much like phlogiston, the luminiferous aether, or élan vital.

That is, praxeology conceives of the human mind in a scientifically backwards way, and it does so proudly, championing an approach that disregards a naturalistic understanding.

If you attempt to define “trying” or “choice” as I asked, you might start grappling with the problem I am addressing. Your plea that “but you must know what I mean!” doesn’t work.

My point is a little more simple: neoclassical economics, its whole mentalistic baggage, can be reduced to more physicalistic terms, if one wanted to do so.

It seems that’s more of a hopeful assertion, than a point.

To address your “law of diminishing marginal utility,” I consider it an empirical theory that can be disproven by counterevidence, such as by a real instantiation of Nozick’s utility monster. As Rothbard stated of the “disutility of labor,” It is not deducible from human action because its contrary is conceivable, although not generally existing.

The law of diminishing utility and the disutility of labor are two different notions. The latter, according to Mises and Rothbard, while generally observed, is not a necessary logical implication of action, and therefore, according to that conception, is not an economic law. The opposite is true of the former.

Nozick’s utility monster, conceived in a way so as to disprove the law of diminishing marginal utility, can no more be instantiated than can a square circle. To disprove the law, the monster would need to allocate an additional quantity of a homogenous good to serve an end (end D) more important than what he would have allocated it to (end C) had he not had the additional quantity. But that would be a contradiction of terms, because if end D were more important than end C, than it would, by definition, had allocative priority even without the additional quantity.

Methodological dualism, by its very nature, claims to have access to the human mind in a psychological sense–otherwise it would just be natural science, right?

Mises, Human Action:

“The field of our science is human action, not the psychological events which result in an action. It is precisely this which distinguishes the general theory of human action, praxeology, from psychology. The theme of psychology is the internal events that result or can result in a definite action. The theme of praxeology is action as such.”

In my ideal study of behavior, I would observe the input and the output of a human subject, attempting to understand the entire process intelligibly (from sensory stimuli to the sound waves emitted from the subject’s mouth).

Good luck with that.

To understand this more sharply, you will agree that Mises used the term “satisfaction.” By that term, what did he mean?

Nothing with regard to emotional states or endorphin levels…

Mises, HA: "

We call contentment or satisfaction that state of a human being which does not and cannot result in any action."

Just because you are reporting to me an experience of “trying” no more proves its truth than testimony about witches.

True, but what about your own experience of trying?

Fair criticism. I ultimately mean that nothing prohibits the methodology of neoclassical economics from using a non-mentalese language (e.g., physics), whereas Austrian economics can’t step outside of those bounds, since it defines itself by dualism.

Suppose you had the choice of receiving a free $10 Amazon gift certificate or the opportunity to pay seven dollars for a $20 Amazon gift certificate.

Most people instinctively chose the free $10 Amazon gift certificate, even though purchasing the $20 gift certificate brings you more profit – $10 vs $13 ($20-$7) – and thus is the better choice.

Could Austrian economists have made this prediction?

Does the sun rise and set? It sure looks that way. In fact, the geocentric theory confirmed it, adding to an observer’s sense of certainty.

I disbelieve in folk psychology, which adds mentalese fictions like “trying” or “desire.”