Missle Defense: Can You Defend It?

Some BBC news posted by CSPANJUNKIEdotORG on Youtube:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yMb522lWDmQ

I posted the following to a Yahoo newsgroup a little while ago. The group contains quite a few anarchists, but anyone is encouraged to reply. [;)]

My post as it appears on the Yahoo newsgroup:

(Firstly, this question is not about the U.S. nor the particular
course they may or may not be taking in order to secure a missle
defense program, whatever that program may consist of. Secondly, if
you wish to discuss it in terms of the U.S.'s current policy, I’d
prefer you address the idea of such a defensive technology more
abstractly before integrating it into the politics of our day)

Would a technology that can insulate you from foreign nuclear missle
attack be desirable?

Within your preferred form of governance or societal arrangement,
what percentage of your income would you be willing to pay to support
such a technology? This assumes there exists a significant nuclear
armament, similar to the levels found in today’s world, not currently
under the auscpices of your preferred societal arrangement or
governance.

Would you want the U.S. to have this technology and by proxy defend
you from nucear missle attack? Even if you oppose the coercive
measures employed to finance such a defense system, would you rest
better at night knowing that it’s there or do you think things would
get worse? If worse, then in what way?:

Missile Defense is a scam.

The system is incapable of defending against a Russian scale attack, it could defend against maybe a few dozen missiles. So it can’t be designed as a defensive system against the Russians. It is also being placed in Europe. The old pretense for its placement there was to defend against the Iranians, which is laughable just geographically. But the Iranians have neither missiles nor nukes which makes it a flat lie.

So whats it for? Its a offensive weapon against the Russian.

The system is worthless if the Russians launch first, obviously. But if the Americans launch first, they can destroy enough missiles on the ground that the missile defense would be able to stop the rest. Its sole purpose is make American first launch viable, thus intimidating the Russians. Period.

There isn’t a justification for spending hundreds of billions of other peoples money in this effort. The whole concept of missle defense is a Cold War relic whose time never has come. Besides there are airplanes, cruise missles, boats, mules, oxen, cars, trucks etc capable of moving a nuclear weapon into the US for a lot less money than the cheapest ballistic missle.

Any defense system would be part of an offense system - block punches and throw punches.

And you’d rather Russia’s nuclear bombardment have a greater chance at succeeding? Do you think there’s any correlation between the conduct of a country’s domestic affairs and the conduct of it’s foreign affairs? In other words, if a country were internally more oppressive toward it’s own population, would you expect this oppression to resonate in it’s foreign relations as well? If so, would you rather live under a Russian-like government or an American-like governmenr?

So if there existed a perfect or nearly perfect defense against nuclear missles being launched against you from an area outside your ‘borders’, you wouldn’t feel safer?

Yes, other means could deliver nuclear blasts, but not at the volume of an aerial assault, right?

The question you’re asking doesn’t make any sense. If you have to use force to make people abide by a decision, then it doesn’t matter how you feel about it. You don’t have a decision and are being force to abide by a certain decision. In a free society, however, the picture changes. Free societies are characterized by the free exchange of ideas. People, through market pressure, ultimately dictate which ideas are adopted. People usually adopt ideas according to their utility, although cases of mania do sweep through the markets now and again. The need for missile defense would probably hinge on it’s utility. If it were deemed necessary for defense, companies would be formed to meet that need for defense and/or established companies would expand operations to cover that need. Point being that people, voting with their money, would decide if missile defense would be necessary and proper for defense. Right now we have a system that steals from you (taxes) and is spent on all manner of things (usually to buy votes in the next election) or as pet projects of some bureaucrat who is beholden to no one.

Since we are talking about a coercive system of appropriation and deployment, based on historical trends, this is what will happen. Military technology is constantly in flux. When a better penetration aid is developed, it spurs development of new defensive techniques, which then spurs the development of better penetration aids, ad infinitum. Until, that is, the economy collapses because it can no longer carry the burden of eternal military development and deployment. It gets worse the larger the military. The United States has historically avoided this by downsizing the military after every war it has fought. Thus, when a new war breaks out they are forced to trade space for time. Which it is spectacularly equipped to do due to the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. That is why missile defense has achieved such a mania in the US. For generations the US was invulnerable to invasion (except by the British who did not seem inclined to take over). Development of ICBM’s changed all that. That’s a major reason for the development of the MAD doctrine. Now for the first time in 40 years, the technological ability to defend against that threat is a possibility. Since the government loves projects like these; spends money to buy votes, protects people from a bogeyman, etc.; it seeks to fund these measures regardless of public opinion, foreign or domestic.

This does not, however, happen in a vacuum. Other people will see this development as a threat. It does make a first strike scenario viable. The Russians have little to worry about because they still have boomers that cannot be targeted and can be launched from the coast of the US if needed. Any missile shield to defend against that would need to saturate the air with missiles. China, India, Pakistan and others with smaller numbers of missiles could be defended against, if they ever develop the capability, which they will do now in order to convince their people they are doing everything in their power to protect them. It’s much like the 1920’s when the Allies of the last war began a naval race to see who would control the sea-lanes. That resulted in the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922, which limited the number of warships a nation could construct, otherwise they’d all have spend each other into bankruptcy. It’s what happened to the Soviet Union and almost what happened to the US, or may still be happening to the US, depending on your view.

So in the end, they policy is good domestically for those in power for the time being, but the foreign repercussions will hang over the nation for decades to come. In a way the September 11th attacks were a culmination of the previous 50 years of power politics in the Middle East. A hundred years ago, the Empire of Japan approached the US to act as an intermediary between the Japanese Empire and the Empire of Russia. The Treaty of Portsmouth ended that conflict. Contrast that with today, a United States government that tries to enforce peace in the Middle East. The difference is that today, the good offices of the US are no longer as respected as they were in 1905, probably because we are not the nation we were in 1905.

Second point first:

If I am blown to bits in one nuclear blast or several then I am in the same position. Then you are still blown up. I have no like of the clowns in Washington DC or anywhere else. If I can be blasted then so can they and it is theft for my benefactors to build an unworkable system and send me the bill.

Now as for feeling safe from you Perfect System I have this to say: The AIN’T ONE!! System are only reliable to some statistical level of confidence. I have a hard time visualing the clowns that run the DOD and Congress being able to manage the men, machinery and technology to build a perfect system.

Even if there is a perfect system to keep out ballistic missles there ain’t one to keep out a suicide boater from floating one up the Mississippi and putting the bomb on a truck and sending it to Washinton DC. So the whole thing is nothing but an outrageously expensive Self Esteem Program.

I never understand the warefare staters. They hate the public school feel good pro-self esteem crap but believe the same thing when it comes to wasting even more money.

Actually, domestic oppression decreases a Nation’s wealth and requires it to act very reserved in its foreign affairs. Socialist nations may talk big, but I am refering to action. In the last 2000 years, the richest nations became the most interventionist in their foreign affairs. That is, until they spent enough of their wealth that they just couldn’t defend their holdings abroad.

America is far more belligerent than the Russians.

I’d prefer if the US had 0 nuclear weapons, even if the Russians kept their entire stockpile. Russia is no threat to the USA. They only reason the Soviets and the Americans clashed was because they had competing imperial interests. The Soviets were Europe’s problem.

If internal coercion creates economic problems, wouldn’t that coercion seek to extend it’s realm so that new sources of wealth become available? However, it is fortunate that the destructive force of coercion tends to be self-defeating, especially if it bumps heads with a less coercive force, that has greater economic resources.

I think it’s important to clarify the nature of the intervention. A mugger can intervene between me and my money and a friend can intervene between me and the mugger. All interventions are not the same.

Tell that to the former Soviet satellites.

You MUST want to see America utterly destoryed. There’s no way in hell America wouldn’t be nuked if they suddenly had no nukes of their own!

Do you not see the differences between what used to be East and West Germany? If you’d lived in the western part of Germany post World War II, would you have wished for the Soviet’s imperial interest to trump that of the US’s? Why did East Germany succumb liberty-crushing communism and West Germany did not?

So if a defense system can protect you from a major vulnerability but not from every vulnerability it is of no use? In your personal life, do you take self-preservation measures?

It could make sense if:

  1. every single component was located in US territory

  2. it was used exclusively to defend the metropolitan territory by an attack

  3. it wasn’t backed up by thousands of nuclear tipped offensive weapons

  4. it was shown to be viable and cost effective into stopping as many nuclear warheads as possible

Not a single one of these points is respected so I guess the system is not defendable.

I have not any idea of much the United States have spent on missile defence in the past thirty years. Some systems have been shown to have limited capabilities against small-scale attacks using obsolete weaponry and very little countermeasures (for example the US Navy’s Standard/AEGIS combination or the US Army Patriot PAC 2/3/3+ system), others have been buried and forgotten after insane amounts of money had been spent on it (the THAAD for example), others have benefited, at least on the paper, allied nations at the US taxpayers’ expenses (the Arrow 1 and 2 antimissile systems), others still have been in development for at least a generation without very much to show at their credit (the whole “Star Wars” project).

The US has probably the strongest and most efficient armed forces ever seen, yet in 2001, at the height of its might, they were struck by a group of hijackers using penknifes. Hundreds of lethal warplanes flown by highly trained pilots could not stop a “bunch of ragheads”.

When I grew up I was constantly told that the Red Army was the most powerful fighting force in the world and only nuclear weapons aimed at Moscow were keeping their armoured divisions from come pouring into Western Europe. According to many members of my family it was only a matter of time before the “Comrades” would be strong enough to disregard even this deterrent. Yet in 1987 a 19 year old “inexperienced” German pilot flew a French-built Cessna 172 throught Soviet airspace to land right into the Red Square.

It was back then that I started to wonder if bulding immense and expensive war machines is the best way to keep your country safe.

Hi Austrian folks,

I’m quite sad to see a great people like the USA showing such a low self-esteem and poor opinion of their own history and records, and to see the structures of American success history deeply corroded from inside by the so-called “intellectuals” and mainstream media.

Payrunoid, fully agree with your comments.

Specifically on the issue of the former Sovietic block x USA political/ military balance, I strongly recommend everyone to read the following article, written by the Brazilian philosopher Olavo de Carvalho, one of the most eminent conservative intellectuals of our time, currently living in the USA. Please don’t allow any political or religious prejudices prevent you from reading this article with an open mind, and reflect on these words!!

http://laiglesforum.com/2008/01/30/the-weakened-american-soul/

Wish you all the best, all the way down from Rio de Janeiro.

Halevy.


What a joke!

Germany wanted to be united. The nation was divided up as spoils of war by the allied US and Soviets. You are defending the American annexation of Germany, but attacking the Soviet annexation of German. Even though they were a single joint act! Your argument doesn’t stem from logic, its dependent only on zip code.

Why would I want to see America destroyed? Now Washington, DC on the other hand…

If the USA had no nukes of course it would not be attacked. The USA has no natural enemies. Every enemy it has ever had has been an enemy it has chosen for itself. Every nation, even “evil” ones, have always wanted to be America’s friend. The USA meddles in pre-existing conflicts and chooses sides. (The USA had intervened in the Pacific War on the side of the Chinese long before the Pearl Harbor attack.) And as many time as not, America’s enemies have been former friends that have outlived their usefulness; like the USSR, Osama Bin Laden, or Saddam Hussein.

Yea, and the West Germans were just dying to climb over that wall and be a part of the great Soviet empire!

How many West Germans died trying to escape to East Germany to escape the tyrany of the Americans?

How many East Germans died trying to escape to West Germany to escape the tyrany of Russians?

Who built the wall? Why’d they build the wall? Why wouldn’t East Germany let it’s citizens travel freely to other parts of Europe?

What were the rights of East vs West Germany?

These Russians, these beacons of liberty, are to be respected more than the US???

At what cost? The current cost of such a system would bankrupt several future generations and has destroy the wealth of millions of investors through inflation. And it still does not relieve us from nuclear attack. In other words it is a hundred plus billion dollar safety blanket/self esteem improver.

Rarely. While the coercion would like to extend its realm, it also knows that its wealth will not allow it to extend much without becoming over-extended. I cannot imagine the Chinese government trying to nation-build in the middle east after attacking Iraq for supposed WMD’s.

I don’t think the nature of the intervention has anything to do with it. What if the mugger tries to rob you, and you knock him out and call the police and he is arrested? What if when your friend intervenes, the mugger shoots him, then shoots you so there won’t be a witness? The outcome matters much more. But, none of that really matters for my point. My point is that interventionism, right or wrong, is expensive. Think of the costs involved in mugging - the mugger might get injured or arrested. Just think of the cost of your friend jumping in - your friend might get injured or mugged as well.

Since interventionism is expensive, interventionist governments will make themselves poorer over time. Since interventionism is expensive, only the richest governments can afford to be internationally adventure-some. Oh! I see the problem; I forgot to include a premise: All governments seek to expand their intervention capabilities. Does that make more sense?

Well, if the US govt did what the founding fathers intended, taxes would mainly be going to finance a justice system and a defense system. If that was all they did, and our taxes were well under 10% instead of WELL over 50% (see hidden taxes too), our economy would be many factors richer. 5-10% of a ‘many factors richer’ economy would be a nice revenue for national defense. Also, w/i that richer economy there would exist a more advanced technology and more educated citizen, all contributing to the defense against nuclear attack.

Here’s how I tend to see the nuclear situation.

We were finally able to harness the awesome power of the atom roughly 60-70 years ago. At that point, we had discovered the maximum necesssary explosive power to destroy our enemies. Once you’ve invented a weapon that can destory the world many times over, it’s to no avail that other sources of explosive power be explored. Before this point in time, the race toward greater arms generally meant going from spear throwing to bows and arrows. It meant going from bows and arrows to cross bows. Man’s progression into the truly rigorous scientific age quickly thrusted this arms race to the unsurmountable nuclear age. (I’m basically addressing arms and defense in the sense of brute force)

Once you’ve discovered maximum brute force, where do you go from there? You could concentrate on being faster on the draw and hitting your foe’s nuclear missles before they can fire a shot. You can pursue missle defense, which seeks to knock the foe’s ‘already fired’ nukes out of the sky. You could try to convert your foes to friends and hope the retention rate of those conversions is roughly 100%.

Unfortunately, since the invention of nuclear power/weaponry, there has been no significant counter. When there is potential power, it is better that the entity possessing such power tend more toward liberty. It is better for you and I if we find ourselves subjugated to the more liberal entity. This more liberal entity, as well as less liberal entities, survey all other nuclear powers or potential nuclear powers. They assess the character of the nuclear-possessing entities. The less libertarian they tend to be, the more suspect they become. In other words, a gun in the hands of someone that beats his wife and kids is in all likelihood to be more feared than one in the hands of someone that loves his wife and kids (or at least doesnt beat them nearly as much. lol)

Now that the threshold of ‘maximum necessary power’ has been unveiled by science, do we continue advancing defensive measures (anti-missles, cyber, psychology, conversions, etc)? Do we try to thwart our foes’ attempts at gaining that same nuclear capability? In the pursuit of any of these courses, you come against opposition. For the most part, if you tend to be the more libertarian entity, your opposition comes from an entity that not only frets over self-preservation, but frets over a more libertarian entity’s libertarian tendencies prevailing. Evil doesn’t want good to prevail.

In the interim of nuclear discovery, the US has not made significant gains in it’s counters to nuclear power. As such, it is attempting to hinder non-nuclear nations from advancing to the point the US advanced to 60-70 yrs ago. As time passes, it becomes more and more difficult to suppress such an advancement and the suppression there of requires greater and greater entangling alliances and sordid affairs. In the midst of coercive actions, other techniques are employed, such as propaganda. As the alternatives to coercion prove unsuccessful, partially exacerbated by coercion itself and the critics of such coercive measures (esp. useful idiots), the U.S. must employ more coercion. As coercion escalates, the US diminishes the grayness of it’s foreign relations and enhances the hues of black and white, friend and foe, ally and enemy, good and evil. This delineation moralizes it actions, making them just.

I see this vicious cycle, unfortunately, reaching what many will conclude is a peaceful end, but this so-called peace will most likely be the beginning of the end. Eventually, the ‘problem of nuclear power’ will be addressed by bundling competing interests into a single, governing body. This body will consist of representatives especially from and most likely, exclusively from, nuclear power nations. Each representative will jointly own, with all the other representatives, the entire nuclear stockpile or the control thereof. They will employ a system that requires unanimous consent before missles can be launched. This in essence means, they want be used. Who is there to use them against. This will be made possible by the use of computers. Each nation would have to enter it’s own password before the next nation’s password could be entered. Or, it could even be done in a more hands-on way or a mechanical way, if the nations don’t trust the technology. However it comes about, there will be a joint, international administrative body that will oversee the use of nuclear weapons. This abdication of national defense to international committee will mean a centralization of power and and this absolutist entity will indeed be corrupted - and corrupted absolutely.

So, I think that whenever you hear that the nuclear problem has been solved by the conjoining of libertarian realms and oppressive realms into a single, administrating body, you are hearing about the last days, you are hearing about the sovereignty of good being being engulfed by the insatiable appetite of evil. You will be hearing about the final judgement of mankind.

And how much does the existence of the US discourage any Chinese ambitions? How can a nation so ambitious to oppress it’s very own people not have strong international ambitions? What more closely approximates statism than absolute statism, ie communism? Of course China isnt likely to invade a fellow thug, this would weaken their alliance against libertarian interests. Why doesn’t China allow it’s citizenry to critique it’s actions like the US does if China is so innocent?

I agree. But you have to consider the enironment you find yourself in and the expense of non-intervention. Trust me, I’m not a war hawk. I’m just offering some defense on some of America’s actions because I think the criticism is grossly disproportionate and naively de-emphasizes the culpability of of not only imperfect states but nearly perfectly imperfect. I’ve stated many times, my ideal is anarchy, but until those ideals come about, I pledge my allegiance to the US and everything good about it.

I like that quote. Fortunately, the founding of our government was based upon certain inalienable rights, rights not derived from government but given to us by God. So to the extent we retain such natural rights is the extent to which our interventions must be qualified in accordance with such assumed rights.

I appreciate your post, friend. [:D]