“The poor need government so they don’t starve.”
“Government should not be thrown out, because it will make things worse.”
“Minimum wage helps the poor.”
“Trickle down economics does not work. We have to tax the rich to help the poor.”
The responses:
-
The poor are starving because of government policies designed to make them dependent upon the government.
-
Worse than what?
-
It keeps them poor by limiting their employment avenues.
-
You cannot bring everyone up by tearing down the successful.
Our current situation?
Yeah, I’m thinking only a Godzilla attack or actual bank bailout could make things worse.
You can point out that government is the reason the poor have starved for centuries.
Think about it. Poor people in ancient times managed to get by until the armies of the Pharaoh showed up (or the emperor, or the Caesar, or the king…) and stole their land, enslaved them, and conscripted their children. Just ask one of the African farmers whose harvests had just been looted, or one of the Jews captured and enslaved after Jerusalem was burned to the ground, or ask a mother of one of the conscripts who was killed in war in medieval Europe. Ask if they “need government so they don’t starve” and they will laugh in your face. These poor people would have been fully capable of feeding their families if only left to their own devices.
Like I said, the poor could have fed their families if only left to their own devices. The poor don’t need to steal from the rich to survive; the rich (the political and corporate elite) need to steal from the poor to survive!
Don’t argue with your parents. That is not respectful.
I think it’s really cool that you have the guts to question your parents in this way, it can be very hard to do so because then we might realise that we got less in common with them then we’d like to think.
I was confronted with this problem just a couple of days ago when a girl in my economics class that I have become quite good friends with over the last weeks said the most insulting thing concerning peoples rights. There was a discussion in class, the teacher asked: Why do we tax smokers so much? Do people really have a right to clean air? What about the owner, isn’t it up to them to decide if smoking should be aloud or not?
My so called “friend” raised her hand and went on a long rant about societies “duty” to help the simple minded smokers from them selves and why the cost of smoking related illness makes this into a political question and not a personal one. She concluded by pointing out that the right to live in a smoke free enviroment is more important then property rights and with a big smirk she adviced any smoker to “find help”.
I’m not a smoker myself, but after this revelation I’m not so sure I ever want to speak to this facist again.
Awesome way of thinking about it. I can remember the Jews just desperately asking for a king (besides God, or rules set by the community, however you want to think about it) because they wanted defense (in the old testament). It turned into a nightmare.
But whenever I say that the rich steal from the poor, my dad says, “Tax what? the poor have nothing to be taxed.”
Great discussion. Check for edits, as I am posting more things.
Heh, I challenge your “friend” to live in a world where property rights aren’t enforceable. Watch her head turn as you say that anything that is hers can be stolen, or she could be murdered or raped.
Yeah, I’m that way too. I try avoid friendships with people who are too far lost. I have nothing in common with them. And I generally avoid arguments with my parents over these things, although they’re more reasonable than most people.
Elliotn, considered putting yourself up for adoption? [:P]
-Jon
Sometimes people are wrong. That doesn’t make them bad people. Only if they act out their wrong ideas, for example by becoming politicians, do they become bad people.
Indeed, but I’m not a patient person.
-Jon
I used to have a lot of patients with people who held the kind of beliefs that my “friend” has, but like Jon, I just don’t have the patients for it anymore. Based on my own experience I know with almost complete certienty that given enough time they will show themselves to be narcicistic, violent and narrowminded.
That certainly seems to be your attitude towards the English language.
I hardly ever post on this forum for that very reason, I know my english is far from perfect. I read a lot of the threads and posts on this forum (I have done that for the last 2 years) though and this isn’t the first time I see you writing nonsense.
I have respect for the english language it’s just that it isn’t my native language so mistakes are made. I hardly think that what I wrote is so badly written that it’s impossible to understand so in my eyes you are just trying to insult me, probably because you don’t agree with me but you are to lazy or stupid to actually argue for your own principles.
“Don’t argue with your parents. That is not respectful”
Is that the type of nonsense your parents have raised you to believe in? To never question people just because they are labeled “parents”? Ha! No wonder you are a bully!
Questioning people is a personal act of self-reflection. Arguing with them will be considered an aggression.
Aesop had that covered as well: ever heard of the stick-king? The frogs living in a pool thought, just like the Israelites, that they needed a powerful king to lead them to greatness. So they prayed to Zeus. The Father of the Gods laughed at first but then decided to have a bit of fun at their expenses and threw a stick in the aforementioned pool saying from the Olympus “I granted your wish: here’s your king”. It landed with a big splash and the frogs were suitably impressed and thanked Zeus. After a while they noticed that their new king did nothing but float on the surface of the pool: it didn’t give orders, it didn’t ask for money or honours, it didn’t form the frogs in a powerful State. After a while the frogs realized that good old Zeus had pulled a fast one on them and so they asked for another king: “a mighty and terrible king, one we should fear and respect”. Zeus shook his head at their foolishness but decided to grant their wish. A mighty and voracious heron landed in the pool and started to eat the frogs and make their lives a misery. “I granted your wish, here’s your new king: fear him!”.
Gotta love the Greeks!
Hmm, there goes argumentation ethics.
Don’t let that deter you from posting. People that are anal (or not understanding that this is the internet where millions are required to post out of language) about grammar and spelling don’t have anything better to offer than editorial criticism.
I’d prefer it if more people who understood Austrian economics posted, rather than people with a good command of the English language but little to no understanding of it. So by all means, do post more frequently.
-Jon