Parents refusing to vaccinate children.

Miscellaneous General
1

Suddenly, I feel that when Cass Sunstein argued in his paper that ‘conspiracy enterpreneurs’ enjoy making big money out of making misleading facts that could possibly be quite dangerous to ordinary people, he may have been dead right.

The anti-vaccine lobby just made some huge gains in playing on fears and paranoia of thousands of parents, who no longer wish to see their children harmed by vaccines. These include many well-educated and skeptical parents who take these claims of dangers of vaccines with a grain of salt, and yet are still refusing to vaccinate children to be on “the safe side”.

I am amazed. Are there qualified doctors and bio-technological specialists on Mises.Org? You need to do your duty and fight back the anti-vaccine lobby independently. Please.

I am telling you - even though many parents are unlikely to believe these conspiracy theories, they will still act on them. My parents are hardcore skepticists and atheists, but they still occasionally buy good luck charms for their children “to be on the safe side”. And when you have parents getting ready to have their children, you can bet they’ll spend a lot of time researching on what is best for their children. They will eventually come across anti-vaccine articles online, and they will not stop thinking about it. That’s why 40% of American parents having children in 2008 refused vaccination. I am not kidding you with this figure.

It works by a cascading effect. The person most likely to accept something accepts it. A second person who normally agrees with that person says he will consider it. A third person sees two people somewhat agreeing, and decides to cautiously play on their side for a brief while. In absence of reports to the contrary or by the inner inclination to dismiss what “the establishment tells us”, they get further solidified in these beliefs. That’s how you sell a conspiracy - by only preaching to people who will believe you, and let it cascade from there.

Don’t let isolated doctors looking for money and publicity harm the children of innocent parents. Do something.

2

So isolated doctors are a bigger danger than big pharma?

3

If libertarians want to avoid mandatory vaccinations they have to start telling people to do so voluntarily. Otherwise there is going to be an epidemic of a trivially preventable disease, killing a bunch of kids and adults, then vaccines will be compulsory.

4

Evidence? You know that the introduction of vaccines had no impact on the rate of decline of major diseases in america right?

5

Everything I’ve read - and yes, scientific stuff too - gives me the opinion that vaccines under the current recommended schedule are very harmful.

The topic is controversial. I think the science there is very “ClimateGate” like. It’s a cozy old boys club, and has government fingerprints all over it.

When babies totally collapse right after vaccines, that’s my empirical evidence.

6

As usual, libertarians misconstrue their own philosophy by objecting to compulsory vaccinations per se. It stems from their failure to realize that the State is in no way compatible with their philosophy in any way whatsoever.

There is no problem with compulsory anything except for the problem of State monopoly over arbitrarily defined “public” resources. Private owners have the right to compel others to any rule they wish on their own property.

So for example, the problem of mandatory vaccinations for all those attending public schools is not a problems of mandatory vaccinations but of compulsory and State run schooling.

7

“You need to do your duty and fight back the anti-vaccine lobby independently”

Don’t you see the trap here? You seem to be advocating unconditional support for vaccines. If the public uncritically accepts anything, they’ll eventually be sold a pile of garbage. You’re basically advocating that individuals trust for-profit entities to give them reliable advice on their health. Sorry, but health providers are going to give reliable advice about how to help their own bottom line. If health care is a market, then “caveat emptor” is applicable to it as to any other market.

Taking your doctors advice uncritically is as stupid as taking your stockbrokers or lawyers advice uncrtiically. They’re in it as a profession, to make money for themselves, not as charity providers, and of course they’re going to try to sell you as long a list of vaccines as possible, and they’ll even get people with fancy degrees to advertise for them.

People need to think for themselves and weigh the risks, costs and benefits for themselves.

8

Where is the evidence that vaccines work? And why would anyone who has children that are vaccinated be afraid of someone who is not? I mean, if vaccinations work, then one should not be worried about getting sick from someone else.

9

“Where is the evidence that vaccines work?” - Spideynw

Know many people with polio?

10

No. And? Correlation is the same as causation how?

Regardless, if you look at the evidence, diseases went away when people got sewers and running water.

But again, if you have any evidence of vaccines working (controlled scientific studies), let me know.

11

Well why are people worried if some people aren’t vaccinated? If you’re vaccinated then you won’t get the disease, right? So who cares. People just can’t mind their own business- busybodies.

12

I believe that statistically, if only some people get a vaccine, the risk of a disease being spread increases because the disease tends to adapt to the small attempt to counter it such that the same vaccine won’t work twice. I think that’s how the argument goes or something.

All I know is that if something is being sold by the government, there is some thing that is suboptimal about it -whether it be in the price or quality or quantity department or all of them. Given that there are all these reports about vaccine side-effects, and (even if vaccine’s work) vaccine shortages, I suppose that I would rather opt out of vaccines alltogether and let the market deal with them.

13

Substitute “vaccinate” with “feed” or “provide a house for”. And you can see it is criminal and irresponsible.

Most likely in a libertarian society it could be controlled in two ways:

  • An increased attention to austracizing irresponsible and immoral people, in the absence of prisons that put them out of mind.

  • Explicit punishment that would be part of a neighborhood’s contract between home owners.

14

“No. And? Correlation is the same as causation how?” - Spideynw

It’s not. However, when a guy invents something he says is a cure for the disease or an effective treatment, has evidence supporting that claim, and real world experience shows after the introduction of this cure/treatment, the disease virtually disappeared…

I guess since they haven’t found the graviton yet, you still consider that a mere correlation too?

15

I think people are more anti-vaccination then they ought to and this is bad for making voluntary vaccinations work. But instead of forcing people to get vaccinated we could deal with the root of the problem.

Which I think is three things:

  • Mandatory vaccinations allowes pharamsutical companies to make loads of money by convincing politicans it is necessary. This means they might be pushing for mandatory vaccination when they shouldn’t, people will find one bad example and become more sceptical to all vaccination.
  • Media trying to capitalise on every little germ out there saying it is a pandemic and everyone will die. This is just ‘cry wold’, people will stop listening and bothering when the actuall wolf appears.
  • Leftists taking the oppertunity to bash some evil capitalist pigs by bashing on pharmasuitical companies for all kinds of stuff making people loose faith in the business.

All this makes people much more suspicious against vaccinations and prone to belive slander against vaccinations then otherwise would be the case. Vaccinations are hugely benifical but there is alot of shit going on too.

Just take how much swine-flu vaccine they sold to governments. Complete waste of money .. vaccinations are supposed to be used against you know shit you could actually die or get chronical symptoms from. Not something that causes a few days of mild discomfort unless you have a problem with your lungs already or whatever.

I think a better climate for information here and pharmasuticals that don’t have so many policial benefits to gain (in alot of countried they got like one client … government hospitals. this market is bound to be bad) would remove much of the bad examples at vaccination and pushing out other medication on exagerated ground. Which would make people trust there doctors about this stuff and vaccinate there kids against the stuff you actually should.

16

Suddenly, I feel that when Cass Sunstein argued in his paper that ‘conspiracy enterpreneurs’ enjoy making big money out of making misleading facts that could possibly be quite dangerous to ordinary people, he may have been dead right.

As Clayton put it in your other thread, Cass Sunstein is a “narcissistic, power-seeking, run-of-the-mill statist piece of shit with a big mouth.” He is Obama’s “regulatory czar.” He is the enemy of freedom. He is Big Brother personified. He is part of a conspiracy to suppress the truth and keep us all enslaved to government regulation. To be fair, I did not take the time to read his entire paper about “conspiracy entrepreneurs.” I have, however, read this piece by Jeff Riggenbach, which I think summarizes the situation well.

The anti-vaccine lobby just made some huge gains in playing on fears and paranoia of thousands of parents, who no longer wish to see their children harmed by vaccines.

The “anti-vaccine lobby” is like a grain of sand compared to the monster that is big pharma. The fact that a few concerned citizens have made any impact against the billions of pro-vaccine lobbying dollars is quite extraordinary. The calling card of the pharmaceutical lobby is fear and paranoia, as demonstrated by the media-engineered Swine flu panic that never amounted to anything. The calling card of the “anti-vaccine lobby” is sound science and geniune concern for human health and individual liberty.

These include many well-educated and skeptical parents who take these claims of dangers of vaccines with a grain of salt, and yet are still refusing to vaccinate children to be on “the safe side”.

Well, you may see this as a bad development, but I think exactly the opposite. I hope you come to realize that being on the safe side when it comes to vaccines is often the intelligent choice. There are many other ways to protect yourself and your children from illness.

I am amazed. Are there qualified doctors and bio-technological specialists on Mises.Org? You need to do your duty and fight back the anti-vaccine lobby independently. Please.

The mission of the Mises Institue, as stated on the About page, is “to place human choice at the center of economic theory, to encourage a revival of critical historical research, and to advance the Misesian tradition of thought through the defense of the market economy, private property, sound money, and peaceful international relations, while opposing government intervention as economically and socially destructive.”

In support of this mission, I would hope that medical proffessionals who support this site would fight for the individual right to choose whether or not to be vaccinated. I would also hope they would oppose government intervention related to the immense influence of the pharmaceutical industry.

And when you have parents getting ready to have their children, you can bet they’ll spend a lot of time researching on what is best for their children. They will eventually come across anti-vaccine articles online, and they will not stop thinking about it. That’s why 40% of American parents having children in 2008 refused vaccination. I am not kidding you with this figure.

This is a fantastic development. It is a testament to the power of free speech, the power of the internet, and the power of critical thinking.

That’s how you sell a conspiracy - by only preaching to people who will believe you, and let it cascade from there.

Isn’t that how you “sell” anything? You disseminate information, like we do here at the Mises Institute, and some people eventually believe you or agree with you. Then they spread the information to other people. The word “conspiracy” has become a buzz word to keep people from considering alternative explanations for events. Conspiracies are in fact quite common, especially among politicians and others who have been corrupted by power. The “conspiracy poo-pooists” are often the ones who are out of touch with reality, not the “conspiracy theorists.”

Don’t let isolated doctors looking for money and publicity harm the children of innocent parents. Do something.

Yes, do something. Educate yourself about vaccines. Make a decision based on critical thinking and sound science. Here some resources I’ve found:

Vaccines: The Risks, the Benefits, the Choices with Sherri Tenpenny, DO

Are Vacciens Safe? with Mary Tocco

Vaccine articles from Mercola.com

Vaccine articles from NaturalNews.com

Video of victims of the Gardasil vaccine, their families, and doctors speaking out

And for fun, a couple of anti-vaccine rap videos:

Say No to the Vaccine by Trillion

Don’t Inject Me by Mike Adams

17

I put in the wrong link for Are Vaccines Safe? Here is the correct link:

Are Vaccines Safe? with Mary Tocco

18

I’ve never understood why some people are so concerned about other people not taking vaccines. If the vaccine works, you should be protected against the disease even if it comes back, right? I thought that was the whole point of vaccines. Sure it would be sad if a lot of misinformed people died from something preventable, but it was their own decision.

19

@xahrx “It’s not. However, when a guy invents something he says is a cure for the disease or an effective treatment, has evidence supporting that claim”

And again, where are your scientific studies with this so called evidence supporting the claim?

20

Why my post (remark) was deleted? Did I insult someone? Anyway, to anyone, who is concerned about medicine, I suggest you to read this blog http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/

And Big Pharma is strong because of the state support, not because of some massive conspiracy of scientists/doctors to infiltrate our precious kids with “poison”. All this anti-vaccine lunacy drives me nuts.