Primal diet/lifestyle thread

Miscellaneous General
21

I have a question about supplements. Apparently they are good for you. But there are more than one kind, and there is this thing where if you take one kind you also have to take one other kind or else the first kind won’t be absorbed and then you are doing it for naught.

It’s like you’re supposed to take some fish oil, but then you also have to take antioxidants or else the fish oil doesn’t work. And also then there is vitamin D which is good, and vitamin C that is useful…

Can somebody clear up this for me, how many supplements are there that go with paleo-diet, and especially what is an antioxidant?

22

To back up Clayton here, we have a whole host of physical features that only make sense in the context of a certain type of hunting, namely persistence hunting.

How persistence hunting works is like this: one or more people chase down an animal for long distances until the animal is exhausted, at which point it can be finished off. The best time to do this is during the hottest part of the day, when most animals are the least active. Our relative hairlessness and our sweat glands keep us cooler than other animals during that time of day. Also, a human being in good (if not great) physical shape has greater running endurance than any other large animal. Our bodies are actually built more for running than for walking. Finally, persistence hunting typically involves the prey animal sprinting off over the horizon multiple times during the chase. A good persistence hunter must look for clues about where the animal headed once it’s out of sight. Our great intelligence could well derive in part from this requirement.

Put it all together and the evidence seems clear: our ancestors became apex predators by becoming adapted to an evolutionary niche that no other animal in Africa had exploited up to that time.

23

How is it that you cannot even get primitive eating correct? Where, exactly, did you get the ridiculous idea that a human being can survive on a wild, raw vegan diet?

24

Yeah, how do we get all the essential proteins? Do we have a wide variety of proteins in store?

25

Mark Sisson presents a case against persistence hunting as the primary method by which humans obtained food sources. Clearly, it was something they did but he believes the game had to be big in order to merit such massive expenditures of energy. Instead of just blindly expending energy trying to run animals to exhaustion, we more often used our massive, energy-intensive brains to track them, surprise them and trap them.

This is why he advocates a fairly limited cardio regime… no long-duration, high-intensity cardio. This coming from a guy who was a pro marathoner in his past life. I can attest that long-duration, high-intensity cardio just doesn’t feel right to me. Short bursts of sprint intensity combined with longer, moderate-intensity cardio feels more natural to me.

Clayton -

26

Addendum: As an aside, I have a theory that this mania for long-distance running ultimately comes from the military establishment. The military is the primary consumer of endurance cardio in the form of long marches, runs, swims, and so on. The ancestral human did not have the luxury of performing feats and was not interested in performing feats… he just wanted to eat his next meal at the least cost and risk to his person.

Nevertheless, it is clear from looking at the human body that he was insanely fit. How else did we get all those highly-visible, secondary sexual features (pecs, abs, biceps, glutes, quads etc.) unless humans were engaging in sexual selection based, at least in part, on appearance?

I remember reading a book by a Marine Recon; recounting his training regimen he noted that they consumed about 9,000 calories a day. And they burnt all of it training. Their sergeants were busted-up, broken-down old men by the age of 45. There can be no doubt that this is not natural.

Clayton -

27

That seems accurate based on my experience. The reason their bodies are falling apart by their mid-40s is not just killer cardio, but also poor diet and lifestyle choices, combined with hideous training philosophies. For example, in my unit, the program that we used to develop our ability to march long distances consisted of 4 workouts, each one week apart. The first week, we marched 6 miles. Next week it was 9 miles. Just two workouts into the program, we had already doubled the exercise to 12 miles. And finally, when we completed the 15 mile hump, we were done. As far as the marine corps was concerned, our unit was “subsistence march qualified” or whatever. Of course, some people got injured. These injuries were compounded by the fact that no one wants to “drop out” of a hump because even with compound fractures in both legs, shit would be talked BY YOUR SUPERIORS. There was no recognition of different abilities, periodization, goal setting, goal attainment, or injury prevention.

every time I would try to point this crap out, people told me two things: “this is the way we have always done it” and “if you dont like it, get the fuck out.” so here I am.

28

Anyone who sticks to a non-conventional diet definitely has some strong will power, especially with a majority of people who may find it odd or stupid (seeing how I got that enough). Good luck!

As for the primal diets they seem to work, I’ve known people to try these more meat based diets and they’ve lost weight (diet + exercise). As far as health goes this is one of those things where I sort of see this vegan vs primal health thing come up, because in a way they are not that much different except on meat. Though with all that I’ve read on meat I’ve concluded it has more negative than positive in the long run. The thing with protein (don’t quote me as absolute on this, just from the sources I’ve read), is that it’s not as neccassary as one thinks. If one intakes more than their daily dose it doesn’t have any more beneficial results, and I’ve read if you intake way more than your daily dose it can have a negative reaction. I’ve read that a lot of people in this country intake more protein than they need, because a lot of people eat meat daily (or more than once a day).

As far as dairy goes you don’t need it. You could completely disregard it now and you’d probably feel better a week from now (this goes for anyone). If you can’t let go of dairy/cheese because of taste just watch some videos of where it comes from and why milk is actually harmful for your bones.

The only thing where meat/dairy may play a role in health is vitamin B12, while B12 itself is vegan it’s a bacteria that can be found in meat and dairy products. It’s abundance in non-meat/dairy products is limited.

Clayton, what meats are you eating? Seems the best in order would be fish, chicken, and then red meat (from venison to beef).

29

Bert, how much dietary protein does the human body need?

30
  • If you can’t let go of dairy/cheese because of taste just watch some videos of where it comes from and why milk is actually harmful for your bones.

I grew up acrossed the street from a dairy farm, so I don’t see what’s really “bad” about where it comes from. Unless you’re talking about factory farms and such, but that can be avoided. As to dairy being “bad for your bones”, Most of what I’ve read about it leads me to believe that claim is sensationalized. When your body digests protein, it uses up calcium. So when you process the protein in milk and other foods, you’ll be taking calcium out of your body. However, the calcium loss required to burn up that protien is pretty small compared to the calcium gain from the milk itself. The real health problems from dairy often come from the high amount of fat, and the fact that most of the typical american uses of cheese also involve lots of salt.

Really, diet is interesting, but I’m not sure a radical, rigid plan is the way to go. Your body is essentially a machine, so you go with the old “garbage-in, garbage-out”. Keep to lots of fiber, restrict salt usage, avoid sugar-bomb stuff, get a balance of fat, carbs, and protein, watch calorie intake, etc. There’s various methods of achieving those goals, so if you want to go by a certain diet that’s fine. However I’ve always taken a loose view to dieting, in that you generally strive to achieve a good day-to-day diet, but the occasional abberation is pefectly fine. In the same way I’ll have a cigar every other week during the summer, you can fit in smoked BBQ and butter-cream icing now and again. There’s a whole science behind making food taste good, I think it’s a disservice to human ingenuity to ignore that. :slight_smile:

31

Bert, how much dietary protein does the human body need?

I’ll cite this source,

How much protein do we need? The RDA recommends that we take in 0.8 grams of protein for every kilogram that we weigh (or about 0.36 grams of protein per pound that we weigh). This recommendation includes a generous safety factor for most people. When we make a few adjustments to account for some plant proteins being digested somewhat differently from animal proteins and for the amino acid mix in some plant proteins, we arrive at a level of 1 gram of protein per kilogram body weight (0.45 grams of protein per pound that we weigh). Since vegans eat a variety of plant protein sources, somewhere between 0.8 and 1 gram of protein per kilogram would be a protein recommendation for vegans. If we do a few calculations we see that the protein recommendation for vegans amounts to close to 10% of calories coming from protein. [For example, a 79 kg vegan male aged 25 to 50 years could have an estimated calorie requirement of 2900 calories per day. His protein needs might be as high as 79 kg x 1 gram/kg = 79 grams of protein. 79 grams of protein x 4 calories/gram of protein = 316 calories from protein per day. 316 calories from protein divided by 2900 calories = 10.1% of calories from protein.] If we look at what vegans are eating, we find that between 10-12% of calories come from protein. This contrasts with the protein intake of non-vegetarians, which is close to 14-18% of calories.

32

@Bert: For me, it’s more of an enlightenment analogous to the one that occurred when I understood that mainstream economics had it all upside-down and backwards. Facts are facts and the facts that mainstream economists study are mostly settled, so it’s not about disputing reality or evidence. Rather, it’s about rejecting flawed reasoning. What do you conclude from the facts?

The typical news article covering a new economics study basically uses language that is rife with insinuations of causality while only discussing the correlations studied. The study itself never makes claims of causality (because, as statisticians, the authors know better and would never otherwise get published) but the point stands that the lessons that the average individual draws from this process are horribly flawed.

But this is exactly the same process that occurs in medical science, as well. Somebody does some research, finds a correlation that they believe is significant or interesting or merits further study, usually without taking the risk of constructing a hypothetical causal mechanism. Then, the journalists write articles like “Study finds high cholesterol puts you at increased risk for heart disease” which is a weasel-worded way of not saying that cholesterol causes heart disease while saying exactly that in ordinary language.

Medical science must be consistent with the rest of biology because all disciplines are studying the same reality. We know that humans didn’t harvest grains before 10,000 years ago. Yet medical science upholds the USDA food pyramid which has grains at the base… you are supposed to be eating 6-11 servings per day! Clearly, something is amiss. Anatomically modern humans spent 190,000 years of their history not eating grains and only in the last 10,000 years have we begun to eat grains. Mark Sisson puts it in better perspective: if you include our pre-human “caveman” ancestors back to 2Mya, then you begin to see that the human diet is a protein-and-fat diet primarily derived from the consumption of animals and supplemented with whatever nuts and berries could be foraged.

The primary psychological challenge is to get over the foolish idea that eating “grease” is going to “clog your arteries.” Medical science doesn’t even actually claim that, yet people widely believe that’s the case! Go figure that one out.

The big, unanswered question is how did we get it so wrong for so long? I never hesitate to engage in conspiracy theorizing and I think that, at least in the US, the answer is fairly simple. The big cereal industry magnates receive huge government subsidy and to keep the free money rolling in, they have been engaging in a century of intensive rent-seeking at the FDA, UDSA, medical schools, and so on. You could just wipe the bottom grain level of the USDA food pyramid off completely and you’d have a pretty good picture of what your diet ought to be. Follow the money.

Clayton -

33

I grew up acrossed the street from a dairy farm, so I don’t see what’s really “bad” about where it comes from. Unless you’re talking about factory farms and such, but that can be avoided. As to dairy being “bad for your bones”, Most of what I’ve read about it leads me to believe that claim is sensationalized. When your body digests protein, it uses up calcium. So when you process the protein in milk and other foods, you’ll be taking calcium out of your body. However, the calcium loss required to burn up that protien is pretty small compared to the calcium gain from the milk itself. The real health problems from dairy often come from the high amount of fat, and the fact that most of the typical american uses of cheese also involve lots of salt.

This and this.

Like all animal protein, milk acidifies the body pH which in turn triggers a biological correction. You see, calcium is an excellent acid neutralizer and the biggest storage of calcium in the body is – you guessed it… in the bones. So the very same calcium that our bones need to stay strong is utilized to neutralize the acidifying effect of milk. Once calcium is pulled out of the bones, it leaves the body via the urine, so that the surprising net result after this is an actual calcium deficit.

34

Bert, Like I said I’ve seen that but there are arguments and studies on the other side also. A reasonable intake of milk/cheese/dairy is not going to leech all the calcium from your bones. At any rate, there’s a whole lot of other nutrients and protein in milk besides the calcium, and there’s no consensus that the pH issues actually lead to long term bone damage. Drinking milk solely for bone health is probably a bad idea, but at the same time it can easily be worked into a healthy diet as it has many “redeeming” qualities.

35

Yes, though probably in this order: eggs, chicken, beef, fish. Over time, I want to rearrange to get this order: eggs/fish, beef, chicken.

I’m not worried about eating too much protein because I make sure to eat plenty of veggies with my meal. I think where a person gets into trouble is if they take refuge in a “high protein” diet as an excuse to avoid veggies. This is particularly bad if you’re just eating meat & cheese sandwiches… you’re not getting essential nutrients from vegetables and you’re consuming anti-nutrients in the high-carbohydrate bread.

But my understanding of what is different about the primal diet as opposed to mainstream recommendations is not the protein but the fats. Mainstream diet recommendations promote vegetable fats and pan animal fats. Primal is the exact opposite… you should never use ordinary vegetable oils (primitive man had no access to these kinds of vegetable oils), with the exception of olive oil and certain seed oils, coconut oil, etc. But you should be consuming plenty of animal fats and not only should you be consuming more animal than vegetable fats, you should be consuming a lot more total fat than the mainstream diet recommendations suggest.

Primal diet isn’t especially high-protein compared to standard dietary guidelines but it is high-fat and low-carb (zero grains). I’m experimenting with cooking veggies in lard and butter, it’s interesting and new. Eventually, I hope to get ahold of some tallow (beef fat).

Clayton -

36

I just want to make a general note that it is important to distinguish between individual affinities and tolerances for different kinds of foods and the general dietary recommendations that consist of “shoulds” and “shouldn’ts”. If dairy doesn’t agree with you, its health benefits are immaterial. You won’t die from not consuming dairy.

Too often, dietary guidelines are issued as rigid, inflexible “thou shalt” and "thou shalt not"s. What I like about Mark Sisson’s ideas (I’ve believed this all along) is that it’s all about learning to listen to your own body. What is too much salt? However much your body thinks is too much. If you’re in good health, you won’t want to consume too much salt because it will start to taste bad and/or you will feel bloated and retain water. The same goes for calories… your body tells you when you need more or fewer and the key is eating a healthy, nutritious diet that permits you to “listen” to the body’s signals that tell you when to stop.

Clayton -

37

It’s the grains that get a lot of people.

I think the easy way to reduce the carb intake is to simply avoid them. Say you go to an Italian restaurant, avoid the bread that’s served while you wait for your meal. For your meal, avoid the pastas. Same goes for a Mexican restaurant; avoid the chips while you wait for your meal (eat the guacamole and salsa). During your meal, don’t eat the rice and beans, nor the tortillas. People will look at you crazy, but would you rather look fat or crazy?

As for drinks, avoid the sugary cocktails and, instead, go for the hardcore/manly alcohols on the rocks. Or drink ice water and squeeze some lemons into it.

Do all of the above at home as well. From there, you can go hardcore and up the quality of the food: up the fats; buy the grass-feed, free-range, organic varieties.

38
  • During your meal, don’t eat the rice and beans

Rice, avoid. Beans? I’ve always heard good things about them from low-carb diets, since they’re high in fiber and most of the carbs come from that. Several low-carb diets I’ve seen instruct to discount dietary fiber from your daily “cab budget”.

  • As for drinks, avoid the sugary cocktails

Right on! Although there’s plenty of cocktails that aren’t sugary. I really, really wish I could say the same for my craft beer. So delicious, but absolutely loaded with carbs. Unfortunately that doesn’t stop me from drinking them, heh.

39

HAHAHAHA… well, I’m crazy anyway, so…

You know what, it’s been easy for me to “give up” grains. I’ve never been one of those people who is tempted to sneak into the cupboard and grab a slice of white bread and just munch it down (I’ve known people who are like that… never understood it). So, maybe I got lucky genetically or otherwise but I don’t really have that strong craving. The only difficulty is practical… how do you hold your food without a slice of bread to put it on? Sandwiches are awful convenient. Mark Sisson suggests using a lettuce wrapp for this. I haven’t tried it yet but it sounds good enough to me!

Clayton -

40
  • Mark Sisson suggests using a lettuce wrapp for this. I haven’t tried it yet but it sounds good enough to me!

They’re pretty great, although as you may imagine that doesn’t hold up too well if your sandwich has lots of sauces/condiments on it or something. You basically just need a big peice of Iceberg lettuce. I’ve tried it with romaine and others but the “spine” of the leaf is too thick and doesn’t wrap well. I’m not sure if they have Jimmy John’s out by you, but they let you order any of their sandwiches in a lettuce wrap.