Professional licensing - spefically medical

Hello,

Thank you to the Mises Institute for all the great resources.

While listening to some of the podcasts I again heard the libertarian view that we need to do away with licensing of professionals… the specific example was doctors.

First I’d like to say that in some ways that I agree. I am a licensed medical professional in the field of veterinary medicine and I suppose benefit from licensing, however, in other ways it does continually aggravates me.

However, allow me to direct a more pointed discussion. While listening to the podcast (sorry I can’t remember the exact speaker) I found it interesting the apology that was presented against the common “complaint” against doing away with licensing doctors. To paraphrase the complaint is that without licenses there would be more quacks or incompetent practitioners, while the counter argument was that it wouldn’t matter because people would don’t look to licenses when choosing a doctor but instead they ask around and pick one based on recommendations from their friends - presumably that means that the doctor is “good” because they receive a recommendation.

Ok. So based on that I’d like to comment on the counter argument, but only from the limited aspect of the particular apology given not that the idea as a whole does not have merit.

The first fallacy in the rebuttal is that just because someone gives a recommendation that means that the doctor is “good”. This is really painting with a broad stroke. There is a big difference between someone that has seen their doc for a year or two for a sniffle or cough, verses someone that has seen someone all their life, the same doc has attended their whole family, the doc has caught and treated successfully multiple problems and even saved their mother’s life. Now, which recommendation carries more weight?

Secondly, as implied above any recommendation is only good for those problems with which the recommender has had specific experience with that particular doc. What about all the myriad of other problems out there? There is really no way that anyone can give a recommendation that covers all the possible problems that might be encountered no matter how many different patients of a particular doc that one might question.

Aside from the points above we must go deeper. The implication in the answer is that because we can easily go to a friend or colleague now (in the current system) and feel comfortable with their recommendation of a “good” doc, I doubt that this would be the case in a system without at lest some sort of certification. You see, the reason that you can go to a friend and simply say, “hey, who’s your doc? you like him?” and feel comfortable going to that doc is not really because your friend has convinced you that the doc really knows his medicine. The reason that you can take this approach is because you know - subconsciously - that ALL the docs available “should” be on a relatively even playing field in terms of the medical knowledge that they posses for their particular field of study. This is assumed primarily because they have to pass certain tests before given the privilege of practicing medicine. It is these knowledge/skill tests that provide the fundamental basis for confidence. The question to a friend is not really about the skill of the doc, but how well they were treated by the office staff, the nurses, the pricing, how long they had to wait to be seen, the bed side manner of the doc, and lastly if the doc appeared competent (because, really, how does one really know?).

Now, how easy would you really feel making the decision of what doc to use if you had zero idea what they really knew? And really how could you really know for sure unless the doctor has a long successful history of practice? So, what would that mean for young doctors? Probably that they would have to hook up with an old doc and presumably learn from them so that they could acquire that reputation.

But really ,how does one really know the competency of one doc over another? Medicine is only partly science. It is also art. There is an old saying among veterinarians that about 10% of the cases that get better we helped, about 10% of the cases that get better did so in-spite of us,. and about 80% of the case we see would have gotten better without us. In my practical experience this proves true. So, how does one really even know (especially one without any medical knowledge) that they would not have gotten better anyway? Or, quicker without the therapy? The fact is that our experience has a very low sample volume and statistically we can not obtain significant results.

I agree that the current licensing system for professionals is not the least intrusive and free-est/most “liberal” (as in liberty) way to accomplish the goal. If the goal is to make sure that those practicing medicine actually do KNOW the information necessary to do so safely and effectively (because remember this isn’t like going to the garage to get your car fixed - sometime the docs only get ONE CHANCE to get it right) why not simply keep the board tests that lead to licenses/certification but drop the requirements of having to attend a particular AMA certified medical school? Would this not do the same thing? Maybe someone, instead of medical school, apprentices with a doctor? Or maybe they learn from their father (like I’d like to do with my son)? Or maybe there would be an explosion of new online schools or other unconventional ways of obtaining the knowledge necessary to competently practice medicine?

here we go, first mises post ever..

hey bc,

a couple of your questions contain some of your answers i think.
fair point on the recommendations, there definitely is a difference, but take for example:

“Now, how easy would you really feel making the decision of what doc to use if you had zero idea what they really knew?”

really easy - hell no.
doctors as businesses will now have to demonstrate to the consumer that he/she/the staff have enough education on whatever health service they provide. they will even compete at that. they might also sign under a market-based licensing/standard organizations as they apply.

“And really how could you really know for sure unless the doctor has a long successful history of practice? So, what would that mean for young doctors? Probably that they would have to hook up with an old doc and presumably learn from them so that they could acquire that reputation.”

almost like an intern or apprentice? great!
they can apply to those same licensing standard organizations during/after it.
real life experience would be great for people who would like to work on people’s real lives (i think, plus it reads funny). not to discount the years of studying, but real life experience is… well, real life experience.

very cool insight to have medicine practitioners comment on this btw..

doctors as businesses will now have to demonstrate to the consumer that he/she/the staff have enough education on whatever health service they provide

Isn’t that what a licensing test does?.. demonstrate minimum competency?

real life experience would be great for people who would like to work on people’s real lives

I totally agree that experience is a great teacher, and I am big advocate of apprenticeships - the old cliche is that “I learned more in my first year out of school than all four years in”.. this is true to an extent because, yes, you really do learn as much that first year out, but you could not have learned so much, so fast without the previous 4 years as a foundation on which to build.

At the same time, like I said, we aren’t talking about cars here, but people’s lives… this would seem to warrant having a minimum level of competency before gaining “experience”… how many folks is it ok to kill (or even hurt) as a doc goes up the learning curve?

Would the market require such a standard? I don’t know. It would seem that the less informed, most gullable, and least able to pay (presumably docs with licenses/certifications/education would charge more - I know I would) would end up with the lesser level of care. The more people that fell into those categories, it would seem, the less incentive to get educated (and/or prove it). I can tell you that keeping up the the latest information (called doing Continuing Education) is a big pain in the neck - I would think that many docs might decide to skip it if they didn’t have to…)

BC2010,

The short answer to your proposed rebuttal is that the market can provide a system of licensing if the consumers so demand it. But rather then a government monopoly forcing everyone to comply with its own arbitrary standards, private licensing agencies would compete to conduct the licensing services.

It sort of like the “Kosher” seal of approval that you see on various products in the grocery store. Food producers and providers voluntarily purchase the services of some Kosher inspectors to come and mark their food or kitchens as Kosher. They do this not because they have nothing better to invest their money in but because there are potential consumers who are seeking those Kosher stamps and licenses.

It would seem that the less informed, most gullable, and least able to pay (presumably docs with licenses/certifications/education would charge more - I know I would) would end up with the lesser level of care.

As opposed to now where they cant get care at all?

This would be like if the government set down a law mandating that all cell phones have to be of at least I-Phone quality. This wouldnt improve the quality of phones…well ok it would, but it would also ensure that these now high-quality phones are unavaliable to the poor who are least capable of paying for one, most would no doubt simply choose not to have a cell phone at all.

No one would say that friends and relatives always give true recomendations. Nor does it say that free market licensing has no value. The point is that absent government one size fits all licensing consumers will be left with penty of means to determine the quality of their doctors and other medical providers. The current licensing system to me has zero value other than to restrict the labor supply of medical providers and in the process increase the prices of medical care. Since every doctor I can see is certified then the certification has no value. If there were doctors who were and some who were not certified by a private organization then I would be very interested in learning about why one provider has bothered to get the certification and one has not.

Good question! I don’t know and neither do you. Neither does the politician or the bureaucrat. What you are basically asking is what is the cost that we are willing to pay for a given level of given level of safety. You have basically nailed it! This is the economic problem at hand. There is no objective measure that one can refer to in order to solve this problem. You need to have some method of cost-gain analysis to solve this problem, which is why only by the method of profit & loss of the free market can we even hope to come any close to satisfying the level of safety and protection that consumers are demanding.

The concern of what the market would or would not require is only the concern of a dictator who is ready to overrule the choices of the public as played out in the market, and enforce his or her own set of ideals.

How many consumers of cars understand anything about the technology behind what they are buying? How is it that they end up driving better and safer cars from year to year?

Doc, the market is a place where consumers are effectively Kings and Queens. There is no inherent interest in providing less or more safety, but precisely the amount that the consumers are asking for.

Safety is important but it is another attribute among many others. If you want to eliminate all risk from practicing medicine then you must outlaw the practice all together. Won’t you agree? It’s all about trade offs that the reality of scarcity forces us to constantly make. Who should decide on these trade offs? The individual consumers or some dictator choosing for all of us?

So why are cars better left to the market but Doctor licensing not? If the government could not possibly provide the public with cars, why can it suddenly provide them with the service of medical licensing? The’re both economic services that consumers are allegedly demanding. The same economic principles are at play. If lives is what you are concerned with, then more reason to object to any government involvement in medical licensing, or any regulation whatsoever.

The short answer to your proposed rebuttal is

Actually, my rebuttal was not against changing/eliminating licensing, but rather the apology given in the podcast.

The idea of licensing is useless on the face of it. A diploma is your educational certification. If you can’t trust anyone you should not be buying end services and consultation from the same person. I would see one pro as a consultant and randomly choose another to do the procedure. Nothing else can protect you. Dentists and M.D.'s are cheating people by the score as we speak because the dummies don’t use this formula.

Since every doctor I can see is certified then the certification has no value.

You’re kidding yourself to say that the certifying has no value to you… you are just taking it for granted. The certification at least has the value that it helps you in choosing your docs because you don’t have to worry about minimum competency, which was the original point… you can get recs from friends and family because you have the minimum competency as an assumption.

Please hear me clearly, because I am not saying the current system is the best - only that in setting this minimum standard it does have some value.

"can’t get care at all"???

since when? all one has to do is walk into an ER and they will get treated.

Also, I would say that a human life is a bit different than an i-phone.

The idea of licensing is useless on the face of it. A diploma is your educational certification.

Hog wash. Any academic knows that just because you received a diploma does not mean that you KNOW the material. Even so, what’s the difference? Now you are saying that all docs MUST have a diploma. I’M not even saying that! It makes much more sense to have a minimum competency test no matter how the individual learned the material. Actually, I say the stranglehold on the professions is at the academic institution level anyway - they are the ones that limit the numbers of those that can sit board exams by their limits on the number of students.

If you can’t trust anyone you should not be buying end services and consultation from the same person.

Trust takes time. In some cases you only get one chance with a doc…

I would see one pro as a consultant and randomly choose another to do the procedure.

what keeps you from doing that now?

Dentists and M.D.'s are cheating people by the score as we speak because the dummies don’t use this formula.

They don’t because they - as you said - “trust” their docs. Nothing concerning the point of this conversation would change that.

How is it that they end up driving better and safer cars from year to year?

I’d say that this is primarially because manufactures to some degree are required to inhance certain safety features… but I don’t know what the market would demand if there was no government intervention.

If you want to eliminate all risk from practicing medicine then you must outlaw the practice all together.

Yes there are some risks always. Speaking of risks, I wonder how a market without licenses would handle keeping dangerous pharmaceuticals from harming folks? You have to understand. As a veterinarian I work in a semi-unregulated medical environment. Yes, I still had to do all the licensing, but there is so much available OTC for folks to use to treat their own animals that I see many disasters because they don’t understand what they are doing - but they do it anyway to save a buck. As far as I see it people are more valuable than animals and therefore it is worth giving up a little liberty to provide a safer environment… I guess how best to do that is up for debate.

I also wonder about how lifting a licensing/certification of knowledge type system all together would affect litigation and malpractice?? We already have too much of that now as far as I’m concerned. It would seem only fair that if there were no standard then there should not be much case for litigation… I mean how can someone complain if they get poor service?.. It was their own fault that they did not do their due diligence (because now we would all have to for ourselves) and find a competent doc.

“As far as I see it people are more valuable than animals and therefore it is worth giving up a little liberty to provide a safer environment”

The problem is that it’s not giving up a little liberty, it is restricting the liberty of others.

The problem is that it’s not giving up a little liberty, it is restricting the liberty of others.

This is also a fallacy… unless your advocating anarchy, then there are always some restrictions on liberty… with appropriate “fences” you live in more freedom.

“This is also a fallacy… unless your advocating anarchy, then there are always some restrictions on liberty… with appropriate “fences” you live in more freedom.”

Sorry I’m nitpicking here, but everyone always has the freedom to do whatever they want, what they lack is the LIBERTY, and any restriction, no matter how minor, reduces said liberty, and for the most part, people here are mini or full anarchists.

Sorry I’m nitpicking here, but everyone always has the freedom to do whatever they want, what they lack is the LIBERTY, and any restriction, no matter how minor, reduces said liberty, and for the most part, people here are mini or full anarchists

No need to apologize - defining terms is an essential.

Hmm.. yes I was beginning to get that impression (re: anarchists)… is it really necessary to go to that extent to value liberty?

I believe that at some point (in the spectrum of “liberty”) you will reach a level in which the questions cease to be political or economical (which is what I thought this site was primarily about) and will be come theological. If one truly advocates anarchy at all levels of government (or lack thereof) then you have entered a realm of theology.

BTW -how can you be a “mini” anarchist? What makes YOU the mini-anarchist but not ME? To someone more conservative that I in terms of liberty then I am the mini-anarchist, just like you may see me as the “conservative”. Seems that you are trying to go both ways with such a term. :slight_smile:

You don’t need to know. The market will get whatever it demands, if it can afford it. If it can’t afford it, no government can provide it as it first has to take it from the very same market that couldn’t afford it.

If, as you correctly note, reliability of medical services has a subjective value of existential proportions to the market agents, their willingness to allocate resources (money) toward assuring quality would be met by market participants ready to provide it to them. There is no way to predict, but there could conceivably appear many “consumer reports”-type agencies offering testing, certifications, and reviews to medical providers, who would be well advised to take them as those stamps of approval would increase both their customer inflow and the prices they would be able to charge for their services.

As an example, there are Microsoft and Cisco certifications today that the market recognizes as stamps of competency approval – all done voluntarily and with no government involvement.

Z.

I’d say you’re now making an assertion that is completely baseless. Capital accumulation is what make us all receive more products and innovation. Safety costs. If it was a matter of just legislation, then North Koreans would be driving the safest cars in the world, living in the safest housing complexes in the world and receiving services from the safest medical system in the world.

Let me change the questions towards you to see if I can perhaps show you in this way, the faulty logic in your reasoning:

There is a federal mandate for airbags in all cars. Why must you force car manufacturers to install air bags? Why won’t they install them on their own if consumers are demanding them?

People here are taking their time (I know I have) to respond to you in an intelligent and polite manner, so it would only be only fair for you to consider and respond to what people have already pointed out to you.

We can’t have a serious conversation here if you’re going to keep beating on a straw man to try to get your opinion across. It has been already been pointed out to you that “no standard” is a rather straw man since we are simply rejecting the government monopoly over such standards. That is all!

here we go, first mises post ever..

Welcome, Sonik!