Proving that human action is different than animal instinct

Hey guys, I’m debating a forum of lefties (me the one man army haha) and am constantly getting criticized and rebuttaled. I can handle the normal economic questions, but I had someone ask me what makes action exclusive to humans and not animals in general. I replied with:

“Certainly not. Austrians would say that what makes humans different from other animals is that humans are not controlled by instinct. Humans certainly have instincts, but they have the ability to suppress them. Humans act with a logical mind that can suppress their instincts and impulses. If we were bound by instincts we could have never evolved beyond apes and developed an edifice of technology, language, civilization, etc. Human action is deliberate behavior, the use of means to achieve ends.”

But he replied with this, and I’m having trouble finding an answer, since I’m no so hot with epistemology and Mises and stuff.

"This is of course totally unprovable. I think this is a big part of why your economic philosophy doesn’t make sense. Human action is not deliberate behavior (or at least, not necessarily). In fact, I don’t think it is possible to show that an ant is behaving “undeliberately” and a human is behaving “deliberately”, because this requires access to internal mental states. There is no way to distinguish between a being that is genuinely motivated by deliberation, and one whose instincts are indistinguishable from deliberation. Moreover, there is increasing evidence that most human behavior is not the product of rational deliberation; indeed, the more we understand the connection between neurology, the brain, and the mind, the less room there appears to be for the kind of abstract rationalism you are describing.

I guess my challenge for you would be to prove that human behavior is deliberate, whereas the behavior of a dog, for example, is not. If you can’t prove this, than a fundamental premise of your reasoning is questionable, and so must be the deductions that flow from it."

He proves somewhat of a point. Is there any way to know a priori that humans act differently than animals? Sorry if this has been asked before, the search button for this forum doesn’t work on my computer.

No, you just have to go out into the world and see whether using your idea of your own volition leads to being able to predict the movements of humans and animals. It isn’t even possible to see the consciousness of another human. The point is that using the idea of your own volition which you observe in your own private world as a model for the movements of other people seems to work pretty well.

It isn’t “a priori” that it works. We just have to go out into the world and see whether it does!

Thanks for your post. Firstly, is that from human action?

The problem I’m faced with is over empiricism. Without knowing that there is no way to say animals act differently than humans a priori, hed have me beat because he can say that action axiom and further deductions can be used to explain animal behavior, and since animals and humans clearly don’t act in the same ways, there must be more superior methods to analyzing economic behavior. His point is though, is there a way to know whether an action is “deliberate” or caused by instinct? (Especially in the Austrian case, if it is a prior or somehow empirical?) Because if there is no way of knowing, then he’d say that the Austrian method falls apart because of what I said above.

I know we have methodological apriorism, and that Mises would say we don’t have the creative capacity to imagine a world without acting (we presuppose its existence, as you quoted above), but is there an aprior escape hatch for animals? Or do we simply conclude a posteriori that because animals and humans are so different in the world, that they have different logical minds? Because this seems like somewhat of a weak empirical solution.

I don’t see how this is really relevant to anything sociopolitical. People make choices. Who cares what goes on “in the cloud” as long as you can see the output?

What is the alternative to reasoning? Instinct? I contend that people and animals use both. We have the instinct to reason, and so do many other animals, like dogs or dolphins.

So then how do we separate instinct from reason with animals? Furthermore, if we contend that some animals possess the ability to act, and we can clearly see that they don’t behave in the same ways we do, then praxeology’s power is greatly diminished.

If a cat wants food it will act very friendly. Since a cat can’t do the laundry, all it can do is show affection. That is a lot like human action. Though, the mutual benefit of a very social species offers many more avenues to value than a simple animalistic action.

Yes.

Also from Human Action:

We model not only the movements of other humans, but also the movements of animals, on our idea of our own volition.

And it doesn’t matter whether humans and animals act in the same way - in fact most humans don’t act in the same way as most other humans. The important point is that they act, not how they act. And we don’t need to speculate about whether they really act or not. The point is that they seem like they do, that is, it is useful to act as if they do.

If he thinks that he could model the movements of other people without using the idea of his own volition, that is fine. The only problem is that nobody knows how to do that.

We model other people as actors. We say that, if somebody has idea A, he will do X, but, if he has idea B, he will do Y. We predict that spatial movement X will happen when we think that they have idea A, and we predict that spatial movement Y will happen when we think that they have idea B. And how do we know whether they have idea A or idea B? Well, we establish that, if we see spatial movement P (like certain sounds coming out of their mouth), we think that they have idea A, and, if we see spatial movement Q (like certain other sounds coming out of their mouth), we think that they have idea B. So, in terms of causal connections, we move from spatial movement P to idea A to spatial movement X, and from spatial movement Q to idea B to spatial movement Y. If we see spatial movement P, we predict spatial movement X, and, if we see spatial movement Q, we predict spatial movement Y. But what if we tried to get rid of all reference to ideas and other parts of action? Well, we would need to find two different spatial movements to substitute for the two different ideas. (And most people think that we would find those differences in people’s brains.)

Either way, modeling the movements of other people just on movement itself, like we do with the orbiting of planets, doesn’t seem to be very useful. But, on the other hand, modeling them on the idea of our own volition does seem to work very well!

If he can figure out how to usefully model the movements of other people just on movement itself, he will be a great innovator. I wouldn’t hold my breath though.

Plus modeling the spatial movements of other people on the idea of your own volition isn’t peculiar to the Austrian School. The only thing that is peculiar to the Austrian School is making a science out of observing your own volition and making the model. The other schools just use their common sense ideas of their own volition. Or at least that is the criticism that Austrian economists give about other schools.

Anyway, sorry for how rough these explanations are.

Thank you for your reply, but still my (or his) question remains…how do we know that animals are controlled by instinct while humans can act? I know we cannot imagine as a human observing another human outside of action, or an animal…but how do we know that what we do is deliberate behavior whereas an animal is bound by instinct?

We don’t.

It is meaningless to ask whether something is really bound by instinct or really deliberately acts. The only important thing is this: does modeling their spatial movements on your own volition allow you to predict their movements? If so, it is a useful way to model their movements (if you want to predict their movements!).

You know that you act (or at least I assume that you do). But you can’t know whether other people do. All you can know is that they move like they do. It is the same for animals. Maybe they are conscious. Maybe not. What does that even mean? Who cares?

How do we know that other humans act deliberately whereas animals act on instinct? We don’t. In fact, I would call that question meaningless.

And Austrian economics (and all other economics for that matter) doesn’t stand or fall on such metaphysical questions. The fact remains that assuming that other people (and other animals!) are actors has turned out to be useful.

To conclude, Austrian economics shouldn’t concern itself with metaphysical questions like “do people really act?”, “are people really conscious?”, “are animals really bound by instinct”, or “what if somebody moved the same way as somebody else, but wasn’t really conscious”? Austrian economics isn’t (or shouldn’t be) concerned with such metaphysical questions. In the end, Austrian economics is just another model for predicting the spatial movements of other people. And the way that it does it is to model them as actors.

Again, sorry for all the rambling!

Lots of animals think, just not verbally. They are mostly guided by instinct, but there is a mechanism for communication. I’m positive dolphins, chimps, lions, dogs, etc. can communicate and work toward goals. I guess there really is no way of knowing, but you can operationally measure our ability to learn and judge circumstances. Humans obviously are the best learning organisms on the planet, and that’s the mark of intelligence.

Anyway, the fact that humans can deliberate between multiple choices should be enough to show that humans act purposefully. We have a stated goal in mind and we act to actualize said goal. However animals operate is irrelevant to praxeology, in my opinion.

Thanks guys. Unfortinately, I left the thread and the website after it seemed like I was getting trolled. I appreciate your help though.

As I’ve stated elsewhere, I more or less agree with your leftist friends: rational, deliberative action is more myth than fact (at least to the extent that Austrians ascribe it to human behavior).

How can a phrase be “more myth than fact”? You need a full clause to call it myth or fact! Something like this: “It is more myth than fact that other people engage in rational, deliberative action”, not just “rational, deliberative action is more myth than fact”.

Is that what you meant? (That it is more myth than fact that other people engage in rational, deliberative action?)

BlackNumero, I’m a long time member of the forums in question, and it was interesting to see another poster on Mises made thier way there.

Understand that, at heart, those forums started as a comedy site, so trolling happens all the time. In fact there are entire sub forums on there dedicated to people doing it for fun. However, most are moderated to prevent blatant trolling unless you decide to give into it and make a spectacle. I encourage you to attempt to seperate the wheat from the chaff. There are many people legitimately interested in your opinions. I pop my head into political discussions there from time to time. You’ll see I’ve been posting in the thread you brought up here. :slight_smile:

It’s not all trolls. It’s probably a good place to test yourself, as it’s a hostile environment. I personally have had a few people contact me outside of the forums thanking me for expressing ideas they didn’t want to take the time to post themselves due to the usual dogpile that happens afterwards.

You paid $10 for the privilage to post there, you might as well use it! If not, there’s a whole wealth of information in the other sub forums there on non-economic information, so it’s a worthwhile purchase anyway.

“The first lecture, I want to talk about the nature of man. Comparing men with animals and illuminating the major differences, and characterizing what one can call the human condition, the condition that mankind finds itself confronted with.”

“So with this, let me begin talk about the nature of man and the human condition. And speak in particular about three elements that are unique, so to speak, to mankind. One is language, the second one is property, and the third one is production or technology.”

"Now, you realize then, when we begin all of this here, we are already talking. We are already using some of our capabilities, some of our skills and achievements, that are the result of human evolution. That is, the reconstruction that I will offer you of human history, makes already use of some of the tools that have only gradually evolved in the course of time. Actually, the origin of language is dated back roughly 200,000-250,000 years ago. All of these estimates are of course as you can imagine rather vague estimates. Nobody was around at that time and recorded exactly when they started talking. But these are the numbers that some geneticists and biologists and anthropologists give us for the beginning.

And you notice something else from the fact that we begin all this enterprise from talking to each other, that somehow humans are social animals. We are aware of the fact that there exists people who are interested in game theory, for instance, who seem to have problems sometimes explaining why do people cooperate at all and do not fight each other all the time. But the funny thing is, that this debate takes already place using language. Which in a way, from the outset explains that there must be something wrong with this idea that man was at some point deciding whether they should fight each other or whether they should not fight each other. Obviously, as soon as mankind began to talk with each other, they must have already recognized that there are certain advantages to doing this, and to be social in one’s endeavor. And it is perfectly clear of course from the outset, what the great advantage of having a language available and communicating with other people is: we can convey knowledge to other people than would be possible if we simply had to just look what other people are doing and try to reconstruct so to speak the ideas that were behind what they were doing. Through language, we have the possibility of communicating directly what it was that led us to do this or led us to do something else.

Now, with language, two ideas so to speak emerge. I use here the ideas that were developed first by some Austrian psychologists, Carl Bruehler, who also had some influence on Karl Popper who uses some of his ideas. And Carl Bruehler makes the point that we can distinguish, when we look at language so to speak between four difference functions. Two of which we find already on the animal level, and two of which are unique to humans.

On the animal level we find use of symbols or sounds that express something. Like pain, for instance. That is an express function of language we can ascribe easily to animals and say in this sense they can express some internal feelings. They can do this.

On the other hand language has sometimes a signal function. That is we can produce sounds that indicate there is some danger coming, or warn people, warn other animals to run away. Both of these of course is also possible for humans to do. Language has an expressive function for us, and also has this signal function, to make other people aware of these.

What is not found in the animal kingdom is that language has a descriptive function. That is, language describes “this is such-and-such”. And with a descriptive function of language, for the first time the idea of truth emerges. That is, for expressions and signals, whether it is true or not is not really an issue. But when we say “this is such-and-such”, then it becomes possible to say “is that really the case?” So the idea of truth comes into being because language has a descriptive function.

And the most primitive descriptive propositions would be of the type “this is such-and-such”. That is, having a proper name or an identifying expression, and then a general term characterizing a particular object as having general characteristics.

And the second unique human function of language is the argumentative function. That we have complex statements, connected by ‘and’ and ‘or’, several statements combined to each other, that we in Language has an expressive function for us, and also has this signal function, to make other people aware of these."

"And you realize that it is precisely this last function, this argumentative function, that we must also use as a tool if we now want to make a more precise distinction between the abilities of man on the one hand and the different abilities of animals. And I want to follow here a philosopher Brand Blanshard, who has pointed out some important differences between animals and humans.

And I want to begin with a little quote from Blanshard, in a book called Reason and Analysis, where he says this about animals, and then draws a conclusion that this is somehow still very different from what mankind can do. He says: What does it mean to have human reason or human rationality? And he answers: it cannot be consiousness. Of course because no one can sensibly doubt that animals feel fear and hunger and pleasure and pain. Animals can also make mistakes, which we recognize as when for instance a dog drops a bone for a more inviting bone that he sees in the water. And since only judgements can be mistaken, animals must be also in some way able to make judgements. That is, come to the conclusion that I made a wrong judgement. And since judgement is thought, we can also say that animals think. But they do obviously not think in the same way that humans do.

Now, what is the difference between our way of thinking and their way of thinking? Now let me emphasize four points in this connection, which partly overlap.

The first thing to be noted is that animal thought is always tied to perception. Whereas human thought can wander around, go back to eternity, wander to the future, can think about objects that are far away, can even think about objects that have never existed. Animals cannot think in this way. Whatever their thinking is it requires so to speak some present cue, some observation from which their thinking arises. We can imagine for instance that animals can also think to a certain extent about things that are absent. As if a dog sits in front of a house because the house knows that his master has gone into the house, and waits there patiently until the master comes back out. But even there you can see that it is tied to perception. If he had not seen his master go in there, he would not do what he does sitting there waiting, and in any case he cannot think of things far away, or impossible, or things in the far distant future. So that is the first thing: animal thought is tied to perception, and human thought is in this way freed up of perception.

[To Q:] Yeah.

[Q: Is it possible that my dog is not waiting for me when I come back?]

Yes, we would make distinctions of course also between more intelligent animals and less intelligent animals, right? So the cockroach that you might have brought with you while you were just going into the house, might well not be waiting. So here I am talking, so to speak, about the most developed of animals.

[Q: But how do you know this? Because they do not report back?]

What?

[Q: Because there’s a language barrier, how do we know that they’re not thinking about the stars or infinity. They don’t report to us.]

That brings me exactly to the second point (laughter). You say, that’s one other fundamental difference between humans and animals, that they cannot do this. So even if you think that they might think about this sort of stuff, they have no way of conveying this sort of information to us.

Or, you can say: animals can’t abstract, in the way that humans can abstract. Certainly animals can see shapes, and colors, and they can perceive smells, and things like this. But it doesn’t seem to be the case that they have a concept of shapes, or triangles or whatever, or a concept of green or blue or yellow. Or a concept of different types of smells. Again this is an aspect of what I just mentioned. It is just tied to specific events, but they cannot abstract from the specific event and build a general concept.

If they could, then we would expect them to, yeah, to form a word for these things. And it is not that animals are not capable of producing sounds. Many animals do have the equipment to produce sounds. So this does not explain why they don’t have words. Obviously, despite the fact that they can form sounds, they cannot form what we refer to as words. Sounds to which we attach a certain abstract idea for which we find various instances in the real world.

The third thing that distinguishes mankind from animals are: that animals cannot make inferences explicitly. Again this has something intimately to do with the two points that I already made. Animals can of course make inferences, but these inferences are implicit. That is to say if you have a chicken and you give some food to the chicken that is too big, doesn’t fit into its mouth or so, and it is desperate that it can’t eat it, and then you throw another one of roughly the same size in front of it, then the chicken might refuse to even try to do the same with the second piece of material, because it recognizes that it didn’t work with the first it’s not going to likely work with the second. But again due to the lack of concepts, they cannot make explicit inferences. That is, infer from one concept to another, and thereby be able to say: why such-and-such caused such-and-such a problem, and why it would be in vain to try the same thing twice, that did not already work in the first case.

And the most important difference between animals and humans is the difference that animals do not have what we call self-consciousness. They do have consciousness but not self-consciousness, and what I mean by self-consciousness is: they cannot stand back, so to speak, and reflect about their own behavior. They cannot pause and criticize their own behavior, think about why their behavior was successful or unsuccessful. They do not have anything like norms or principles, against which they can judge their own behavior and criticise their own behavior."

"Let me on this point again quote Blanshard, on this most important of differences, that is the human ability of self-conscious reflection. There he says: finally human reason has added an extra dimension to the animal consciousness in the form of self-consciousness. An animal lacks the power which is the source in ourselves of so much achievement and so much rue, of standing off from itself and contemplating what it is doing. It eats, sleeps, and cavorts, but never pauses in the midst of a meal to take note that it is eating greedily. Never asks if it is not unseemly to sleep the hours away, (laughter) you see in some respects of course humans have not developed that far beyond animals (laughter). Apparently never reflects, as it leaps and runs, that it is a little off-form today. It makes mistakes, but having made one, it cannot sit down and consider what principle of right thinking is violated. Because it cannot contemplate its own behavior, it cannot criticise itself. Being below the level of self-criticism, it has no norms. And having no norms, it lacks one great obvious essential to the light of reason: that is, the power to be guided by principle.

And Blanshard then summarizes all of what I tried to convey up to this point by saying the following: when we say that man is a rational animal, then we seem to imply that he can command ideas independently of sense. Independently of perception. That he can abstract, that he can infer explicitly, and that he can sit in judgement of himself. The highest of animals can do none of these things. The stupidest of man, if not a pathological case, can to the light of reason: that is, the power to be guided by principle."

Or you can listen to the audio: Nature of Man and the Human Condition: Language, Property, and Production (Hoppe)

Hey, hows it going? I wondered if someone was going to track me back here…I left the thread and never looked back after I replied to that post…pretty “awful” forum right (wink wink)? I have a feeling who you are…did you reply at all when I was there?

I don’t know what they said afterwards, but I left the thread because it was a futile discussion. I originally posted there to give an Austrian opinion on Krugman versus Murphy, and some immediately started attacking me for believing in a right wing religious cult. Other critical posters did not even understand scarcity and made it seem like a wealthy versus poor type “problem”. Whenever I answered questions or posted sources they were either ignored/outright dismissed/ or the questions continued to be asked (usually in a deragatory manner). Some of the questions/critiques were good (I had no idea had to respond to this one, for example). I stopped when I read the last fellow, I wasn’t about to waste all of my time (busy man haha) constantly saying the same stuff over again only to be blantantly dismissed. Especially when he said the thread was hijacked and turned into Marxism, I knew that I was getting played. I like arguing/debating people who disagree with me, but like I said on the forum, I know when I’m getting screwed with.

Yeah I was on there while you were posting, I helped you along with describing time preference.

Like I said, you have to seperate the wheat from the chaff on there when you try and respond. You initially tried to take on the entire thread, which was increadibly ambitious, probably too much so. Your “big” post was one of the longest I’ve seen on the internet in years, heh.

It’s best to pick your battles, desribe one or two issues at a time. Don’t feel the need to respond to everything, even if you think you can. Otherwise you’ll have a million people picking apart your posts with mistaken understandings, ignorant assumptions, etc. For every one guy who “gets it” you’ll have another saying something like “Praxeology? Sounds like Scientology!”. You’ll get bogged down in trying to explain the whole of Austrian and Libertarian theory, including writing out an entire glossary of the technical terms used within.

When you’re in that situation, it’s all about parrying the weak arguements and trolls, and attacking the strong ones. If you do that, you’ll at least impress people and potentially shake the (over)confidence of your strongest opponents, potentially turning them into allies.

Lurk around there some more, get a feel for the place. You’ll learn a lot.

Yeah, thanks for the help…I do have a habit of trying to reply to everybody (especially since everybody was so critical)…so that did put me in a position of having to churn out massive pages of text at rapid fire pace haha.

I’ve got a couple of busy weeks ahead of me, so I’ll try and poke my head in there once in a while. It just got discouraged after getting so blantantly trolled. But I guess I should have known better because of the wbsite and all (I love the website though haha).

Thanks for the tips man.