Refuting a statist position on "unregulated" oil rigs

[E_R_Olovetto]

@Benjamin

**pure result of free market action!

**

el oh el

[Snowflake]

@benjamin

Well, we’re seeing what happens when petroleum engineers and the ‘free market’ are in charge, aren’t we?

Flame flame flame like a little twerp. Don’t address any of my points. Please. You’ll only make yourself look stupider.

We have explained that this is not a free market operation. This is water socialism. This is tragedy of the commons. Stab yourself in the brain if you can’t even address this.

[DD5]

Very nice! But what does it prove? That the French government can impress the world by buying fancy trains with looted money?

Look what the US government can buy with looted money?

Buying is easy. What fancy stuff would you buy with other people’s money?

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Let me see if I got this correct:

Transocean purchases a floating rig built by Hyundai Heavy Industries in South Korea, leases it to BP, which is operated on leased land from the United States according to Ttile 43(Public Lands), Chapter 29(Submerged Lands), Subchapter III (Outer Continental Shelf Lands), under the Outer Continental Shelf Lands Act, which regulates offshore drilling heavily, and you are going to claim no regulation?

Holy sweet gesus give me a break!

The Wall Street Journal has reported:

Federal regulators learned in a 2004 study that a vital piece of oil-drilling safety equipment may not function in deep-water seas but did nothing to bolster industry requirements … The equipment, called shear rams, is supposed to seal off out-of-control oil and gas wells by pinching the pipe closed and cutting it.

In 2004, a study commissioned by the MMS raised significant questions about the ability of rams to cut through the stronger pipes used in deep-water drilling. Those thicker pipes—as well as the shear rams—must withstand the enormous pressures found at 5,000 feet below sea level …

Only three of 14 newly build rigs had blowout preventers that were able to squeeze off and cut the pipe at the water pressure likely to be experienced at the equipment’s maximum water depth, the study noted.

The New York Times has reported:

The federal Minerals Management Service has recorded more than 500 fires on platforms in the gulf since 2006. At least two people have died in gulf platform fires over the last four years, and about 12 more were seriously injured before the accident on the Deepwater Horizon. No accident so far has measurably slowed the rate of discovery and production.

Haliburton has been brought into it by the Los Angeles Times

After an exploration well is drilled, cement slurry is pumped through a steel pipe or casing and out through a check valve at the bottom of the casing. It then travels up the outside of the pipe, sheathing the part of the pipe surrounded by the oil and gas zone. When the cement hardens, it is supposed to prevent oil or gas from leaking into adjacent zones along the pipe.

As the cement sets, the check valve at the end of the casing prevents any material from flowing back up the pipe. The zone is thus isolated until the company is ready to start production.

The process is tricky. A 2007 study by the U.S. Minerals Management Service found that cementing was the single most-important factor in 18 of 39 well blowouts in the Gulf of Mexico over a 14-year period.

I agree with your assessment of the state:

It’s the same problem: concentrated, unaccountable decision making power.

[Layano]

the odds of dying from a French rail accident is much less than one in a million, literally.

For comparison, 41, 611 Americans died in car accidents in 2001, and supposedly the odds of an American dying in a car accident is about 1 in 6550. That’s way worse than 1 in a million.

You’re comparing trains with cars, wtf ?

If there’s a handful of unaccountable people making decisions which could blow up in everyone else’s faces, it doesn’t matter whether they’re wearing Mao jackets or 3 piece Armani suits. It’s the same problem: concentrated, unaccountable decision making power.

Things that potentially affect the people in general have to be decided by the people in general. How many nuclear accidents have there been in France?
Ok so you’re a non-autoritharian communist. You want soviets democracy. Good luck.

[Gipper]

“Conservatice economic policy”? WTH is that? LOL

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

[Jeremiah_Dyke]

I wrote about this topic here http://oceanstewardshipinstitute.org/blog/?p=112

The current crises involving the BP oil spill is horrifying for the array helpless onlookers. With nearly 130 miles of contaminated ocean, coupled with a blown-out well spewing 200,000 gallons of oil into the Gulf a day, all with no short-term solution in sight.

The effects are not yet calculable.

In time, as evidence is salvaged from the wreckage and revealed to the public, BP will see through to its obligations of answering for such a calamity, but for now, the focus is on prevention and cleanup.

Through all the catastrophe and political haze we can safely bet on two things as an outcome: increased demand for regulation and the increased blameworthiness of industry. Neither of which will result in net benefits for humanity or the ocean because neither of which attacks the root problem…ownership.

Though it is probably not a good time for industry to decry their opponents, it is fruitless to believe that government officials can regulate against an accident, if indeed it was an accident. In reality, evidence will probably demonstrate that the culprit was an inadequate risk assessment by BP’s management team. Someone weighed probabilities incorrectly or simply lost to an outlier. Yet, all of this only begs the question of why such a risk was taken?

The U.S. Minerals and Management Service documented more than 1,400 offshore oil drilling accidents between 2001 and 2007. Given this, BP still rented the offshore oil platform at a cost of half a million dollars a day.

Neither the platform owner nor the rented user (in this case, BP) had any incentive to extract the oil carefully since any impending trouble would be borne by the ocean landlords: everyone. In fact, there were new oil-rig safety rules eyed even before blast. Thus, with such a legislative environment of uncertainty approaching, risk assessments were likely skewed toward the region of higher tolerance; a gamble leading to an enormous cost.

According to one article, “Ever since the Deepwater Horizon oil rig blew up last week, BP, which was leasing the rig, has been trying to control the Gulf oil spill. The 1,000 workers, 5 planes, robotic submarines, and 32 ships the company deployed are costing them more than $6 million/day”.

BNET’s Kristen Korosec has more:

“BP understands that a dollar (or $6 million) spent today means considerable savings tomorrow. Environmental cleanup costs, which BP is responsible for under the Oil Pollution Act of 1990, will skyrocket if the oil spill reaches the shoreline

This time, the stakes and potential fallout aren’t just big for BP, but the rest of the offshore drilling industry as well. An estimated 1,000 barrels of oil a day are leaking from the BP well located some 5,000 feet under water. The spill, as of Tuesday, was 21 miles from shore, U.S. Coast Guard Rear Adm. Mary Landry said during a press conference. This could be the most significant spill in recent history if the well isn’t secured, Landry said.

…the oil company is going to shell out a lot more before it’s over because the stakes for the environment, its own reputation and the industry are higher than ever. Drilling a second well to plug the leak, an option BP is pursuing, will cost an estimated $100 million.

BP understands that a dollar (or $6 million) spent today means considerable savings tomorrow. Environmental cleanup costs, which BP is responsible for under the Oil Pollution Act of 1990, will skyrocket if the oil spill reaches the shoreline.

That’s not to say BP can simply spend its way out of this mess. BP will still have to answer to the numerous government agencies overseeing the spill. How BP handles itself in this crisis will give investors and the public the clearest indication yet of whether it’s a new, safer and more responsible company or the same one we saw back in 2005.

[DanielMuffinburg]

Benjamin: “And they’d be safer if they were? The invisible market leprechaun again, right?”

What we need is unilateral, top-down, democratic over-the-shoulder, inside-out, side-winder, transparent under hand, round about, jibby jabby, tippy tappy regulation so that this never happens again.

[Solarist]

"By the way, I am not against drilling it, I am just against doing so without proper controls.

1. The rig that was drilling was not a US Flagged rig. That means US Inspectors were not allowed on board the rig to inspect it. As a matter of National Security under the GATT the USA has a right to demand US Only in various technology. The USA should never allow a foreign flag vessel to drill for oil in the US Economic Zone (200 mile limit).
2. Acoustic automated shut of devices should be required.
3. I think US Federal Inspectors should have to be resident on and inspecting rigs like this 24/7.
4. I think that the drilling should be required to do some smaller holes that deliberately miss the main deposit that test the structure before main drilling operations happen.
5. Careful procedures should be in place to set up wells before they hit the main deposit. The well casing should have to be inserted well before the drill hits the deposit and it should have to be cemented in at least 2 weeks prior to finishing the hole down to the oil or gas. This is to give the cement time to set. The casing should have ridging to make this cement have a tight wedged grip on the miles of rock around it. This is required because the lift pressure on a pipe in this case could easily reach 20 million pounds of lift. This is an insane amount of up pressure. Even at 70,000 psi it would lift about 140 million pounds. (almost 64,000 long tons!)"

are you this guy with the top comment on the reddit thread?

[DanielMuffinburg]

So, pretty much completely ignorant of the situation, why didn’t BP have one of those ring thingies to prevent the oil from spreading in situations like these? Why aren’t there tankers out there sucking up the oil from the water?

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Some fantasyland regulated free market is to blame.

Central Gulf of Mexico Lease Sale 213
Attracts $ 949 Million in High Bids

NEW ORLEANS – Central Gulf of Mexico Oil and Gas Lease Sale 213, held today in New Orleans, attracted $ 949,265,959 in high bids. The sale was conducted by Interior’s Minerals Management Service (MMS) and had 77 companies submitting 642 bids on 468 tracts comprising over 2.4 million acres offshore Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama. The sum of all bids received totaled $ 1,300,075,693. “The bidding activity at today’s sale speaks to the future of deepwater Gulf in providing vital energy production for the nation,” said Lars Herbst, MMS Gulf of Mexico regional director. “There was also an increase in interest in shallower waters that offers deep gas potential, which is encouraging.” A total of 151 tracts in water depths less than 656 feet received bids. This represents 32 percent of all tracts receiving bids, an increase of five percent from last year’s Central Gulf lease sale.

The highest bid received on a tract was $ 52,560,000 submitted by Anadarko E & P Company LP and Mariner Energy, Inc. for Walker Ridge, Block 793.
Each high bid on a tract will go through an evaluation process within MMS to ensure the public receives fair market value before a lease is awarded.
Sale statistics for Central Sale 213 are posted on the MMS website at

http://www.gomr.mms.gov/homepg/lsesale/213/cgom213.html

TITLE 43 > CHAPTER 29 > SUBCHAPTER III > § 1337 Prev | Next## § 1337. Leases, easements, and rights-of-way on the outer Continental Shelf

(4) Requirements

The Secretary shall ensure that any activity under this subsection is carried out in a manner that provides for— (A) safety; (B) protection of the environment; (C) prevention of waste; (D) conservation of the natural resources of the outer Continental Shelf; (E) coordination with relevant Federal agencies; (F) protection of national security interests of the United States; (G) protection of correlative rights in the outer Continental Shelf; (H) a fair return to the United States for any lease, easement, or right-of-way under this subsection; (I) prevention of interference with reasonable uses (as determined by the Secretary) of the exclusive economic zone, the high seas, and the territorial seas; (J) consideration of— (i) the location of, and any schedule relating to, a lease, easement, or right-of-way for an area of the outer Continental Shelf; and (ii) any other use of the sea or seabed, including use for a fishery, a sealane, a potential site of a deepwater port, or navigation; (K) public notice and comment on any proposal submitted for a lease, easement, or right-of-way under this subsection; and (L) oversight, inspection, research, monitoring, and enforcement relating to a lease, easement, or right-of-way under this subsection. (5) Lease duration, suspension, and cancellation The Secretary shall provide for the duration, issuance, transfer, renewal, suspension, and cancellation of a lease, easement, or right-of-way under this subsection. (6) Security The Secretary shall require the holder of a lease, easement, or right-of-way granted under this subsection to— (A) furnish a surety bond or other form of security, as prescribed by the Secretary; (B) comply with such other requirements as the Secretary considers necessary to protect the interests of the public and the United States; and (C) provide for the restoration of the lease, easement, or right-of-way. (7) Coordination and consultation with affected State and local governments The Secretary shall provide for coordination and consultation with the Governor of any State or the executive of any local government that may be affected by a lease, easement, or right-of-way under this subsection. (8) Regulations Not later than 270 days after August 8, 2005, the Secretary, in consultation with the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of the Department in which the Coast Guard is operating, the Secretary of Commerce, heads of other relevant departments and agencies of the Federal Government, and the Governor of any affected State, shall issue any necessary regulations to carry out this subsection.

[mr.cleaners]

According to the Energy Information Administration’s Office of Oil and Gas, the Outer Continental Shelf Lands Act (OCSLA) of 1953 “is the primary governing legislation regarding U.S. offshore regions.” Although it has been amended numerous times since its passage in 1953, OCSLA defines the Outer Continental Shelf region and mandates environmental management and safety plans for drilling operations.

yup government regulations are what we need and here are the 14 biggest oil spills and i think i see france in there

^{[[21]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill#cite_note-20)[[22]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill#cite_note-Mariner_Group-21)}[Ixtoc I oil well](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ixtoc_I)[Gulf of Mexico](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Mexico)June 3, 1979–March 23, 1980454,000–480,000^{[[23]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill#cite_note-22)}[Atlantic Empress](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Empress) / [Aegean Captain](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aegean_Captain&action=edit&redlink=1)[Trinidad and Tobago](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinidad_and_Tobago)July 19, 1979287,000^{[[24]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill#cite_note-ITOPF-23)[[25]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill#cite_note-24)}Fergana Valley[Uzbekistan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbekistan)March 2, 1992285,000^{[[22]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill#cite_note-Mariner_Group-21)}[Nowruz oil field](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowruz_%28oil_field%29)[Persian Gulf](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Gulf)February 1983260,000^{[[26]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill#cite_note-25)}[ABT Summer](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ABT_Summer&action=edit&redlink=1)700 nautical miles (1,300 km) off [Angola](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angola)1991260,000^{[[24]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill#cite_note-ITOPF-23)}[Castillo de Bellver](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Castillo_de_Bellver&action=edit&redlink=1)[Saldanha Bay](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saldanha_Bay), [South Africa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa)August 6, 1983252,000^{[[24]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill#cite_note-ITOPF-23)}[Amoco Cadiz](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoco_Cadiz)[Brittany](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittany), [France](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France)March 16, 1978223,000^{[[22]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill#cite_note-Mariner_Group-21)[[24]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill#cite_note-ITOPF-23)}[Amoco Haven tanker disaster](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoco_Haven_tanker_disaster)[Mediterranean Sea](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Sea) near [Genoa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoa), [Italy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy)1991144,000^{[[24]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill#cite_note-ITOPF-23)}[Odyssey](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Odyssey_Oil_Spill&action=edit&redlink=1)700 nautical miles (1,300 km) off [Nova Scotia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_Scotia), [Canada](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada)1988132,000^{[[24]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill#cite_note-ITOPF-23)}[Sea Star](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sea_Star_Oil_Spill&action=edit&redlink=1)[Gulf of Oman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Oman)December 19, 1972115,000^{[[22]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill#cite_note-Mariner_Group-21)[[24]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill#cite_note-ITOPF-23)}[Torrey Canyon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrey_Canyon)[Scilly Isles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scilly_Isles), [UK](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK)March 18, 196780,000–119,000^{[[22]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill#cite_note-Mariner_Group-21)[[24]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill#cite_note-ITOPF-23)}[Irenes Serenade](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Irenes_Serenade&action=edit&redlink=1)[Navarino Bay](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Navarino_Bay&action=edit&redlink=1), [Greece](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece)1980100,000^{[[24]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill#cite_note-ITOPF-23)}[Urquiola](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Urquiola&action=edit&redlink=1)[A Coruña](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Coru%C3%B1a), [Spain](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain)

Spill / Tanker	Location	Date	*Tons of crude oil	Reference
Gulf War oil spill	Persian Gulf	January 21, 1991	1,360,000–1,500,000

[mr.cleaners]

lets take a look at IXTOC 1 its the second largest oil spill in history and guess what its government owned

[bloomj31]

@Benjamin, I’d support regulations of these industries, I don’t really care about BP, I just think you’re being a little naive about the effectiveness (not to mention purpose) of government regulation.

But yeah, have your regulations if it will make you feel better.

[Paul]

Yeah, well this “accident” didn’t happen in the North Sea or off Norway, both sites with intense European environmental regulation. It just happened to happen in the deregulated U.S. zone after an 8 years of a President who used to run an oil company.

Does the name “Piper Alpha” mean anything to you?

[polskash]

At least the French train is real.

[yessir]

ah yes, the wonderful nature of government.

1. Accident will not occur when the state is involved.

2. To ensure 1 occurs, no opportunity cost will have to be given up

What this means for you voters:

Same amount of oil, same cost, less accidents

Vote now!

(free lunch?)

[Jackson]

They don’t happen with good, democratic regulation.

…kid…read a history of the mismanagement of yellowstone national park. or look at the stellar record the tsa has regarding covert security tests.

you’re either hopeless or you’re trolling.

[yessir]

@Solarist

"By the way, I am not against drilling it, I am just against doing so without proper controls.

1. The rig that was drilling was not a US Flagged rig. That means US Inspectors were not allowed on board the rig to inspect it. As a matter of National Security under the GATT the USA has a right to demand US Only in various technology. The USA should never allow a foreign flag vessel to drill for oil in the US Economic Zone (200 mile limit).
2. Acoustic automated shut of devices should be required.
3. I think US Federal Inspectors should have to be resident on and inspecting rigs like this 24/7.
4. I think that the drilling should be required to do some smaller holes that deliberately miss the main deposit that test the structure before main drilling operations happen.
5. Careful procedures should be in place to set up wells before they hit the main deposit. The well casing should have to be inserted well before the drill hits the deposit and it should have to be cemented in at least 2 weeks prior to finishing the hole down to the oil or gas. This is to give the cement time to set. The casing should have ridging to make this cement have a tight wedged grip on the miles of rock around it. This is required because the lift pressure on a pipe in this case could easily reach 20 million pounds of lift. This is an insane amount of up pressure. Even at 70,000 psi it would lift about 140 million pounds. (almost 64,000 long tons!)"

are you this guy with the top comment on the reddit thread?

http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/bzflh/why_do_they_keep_referring_to_this_as_an_oil/

The arm-chair regulator, a new breed indeed