Fegeldofy, go pick up The Myth of the Robber Barons. It’s a pretty rudimentary history book, but it sounds like it would blow your class out of the water. Just don’t stop after reading it if you want to argue the issue on a higher level.
“Fair share” is nothing more than a phrase that enables politicians to utilize emotionally driven arguments that make people feel like they’ve somehow been wronged simply because “the rich” make more money than them.
There’s no argument that legitimizes an arbitrary number, whether progressive or flat, to be the “fair” tax rate…except for
“SOCIAL CONTRACT LOLL!!!”
Update: Today we discussed labor unions. The basic consensus was:
*Unions are selfless and care about workers, and without them we’d still be working in coal mines.
*Unions can raise wages (obviously no one in that class has read Hazlitt)
*Only “evil right wingers” hate unions.
*Businessmen are bad because they only care about profits, so, you know “profits over people”
We got a handout of documents of contemporary (19th century) views on unions that were mostly negative, and a question that says “Why did the American public dislike labor unions?” I like how they try to present it as “well Americans were being tricked by evil big businessmen, and they didn’t realize how great labor unions are,but now we know better”.
I don’t want to be “that guy”, the person who’s always debating the teacher, especially since that’s not really the style of teaching that goes on there. I tend to present my alternative views in essays we sometimes write on Fridays. For example, when we were wrapping up the founding period, my teacher let us pick a conflict between two FFs and defend one of them. So I picked Jefferson vs. Hamilton with the bank and defended Jefferson’s view, whereas the book implied that Hamilton was right. Same thing with the Civil War, I refuted all the arguments against secession that my teacher spent a day teaching to us.
So I’ll print out those charts and use them in my essay I’m writing on Friday if I feel like they’ll help. I don’t know what it’s going to be about, since we don’t get to know until the day we write it (the idea is that it’s “spontaneous”),but I assume it’s something like “Were Rockefeller/Carnegie/Vanderbilt captains of industry or robber barons?” or “What was life like for workers?” or “Discuss the importance of labor unions.”
I’ve actually got that book on my kindle, and I started reading it like two months ago. I remember I got about halfway through the chapter on the Scrantons when I put it down, I think it was because I wanted to read Murphy’s Lessons for the Young Economist. I remember Fulsom’s book being really good.
This is slightly off topic but I figure I may as well ask it here:Has anyone read Fulsom’s book about FDR, I think it’s called New Deal or Raw Deal, and if so,do you recommend it?
Yeah I recently commented on this myself here. But I figure in high school it can’t affect you too much, and the psychic rewards I would get seem just too tempting.
For some quick reference, be sure to check the above linked Applying Economics to American History | Thomas E. Woods , Jr.
Also How Capitalism Saved America is quite appropriate. Be sure to check the links there.
I haven’t read it yet but I recall Tom Woods hosting the Peter Schiff Show or in lecture, and speaking pretty highly of it, as well as Folsom in general. See other titles here (including another on FDR)
Guys guys…
I think we are all getting worked up about this…
Seriously is a public school what do you expect? Its not dick dont take it so hard. Just tell the teacher you disagree with her views and then move on.
What you should do is talk about how obama is such a great leader blah blah blah, and then get the A grade, get out, never see that stupid teacher again.
You believe getting an A in high school is more valuable than showing others that the official story is untrue or has reasonable objections?
Because his classmates dont really care, so he is just wasting his effort.
Im just speaking from experience here…
Okay, I get it, you know his classmates. Even though I was a statist in high school, I liked it when somebody argued against what we were forced to learn and tried to make the teacher defend their position. While it made the regular school room drudgery a little more interesting for me, maybe others didn’t see it the same way.
Man, I didn’t know any libertarians in HS, or even that they existed. As soon as the idea was presented to me, years later, I ate it up. Make a ruckus.
I don’t really speak up in class;I’m not that good at articulating things.
I think tomorrow we’re playing some I.C.C simulation game or something.
If you must absolutely must counter something against the teacher, try to not be too antagonistic (happened to me, now im “that kid” in class), just do like:
teacher: boom and bust cycle is the cause of capitalism
you: oh, why is capitalism the cause for the business cycle, blah,blah blah
something like that.
Yeah,in my paper I’m not gonna talk about the federal reserve or stuff like that because then my teacher’ll think I’m a conspiracy theorist. I’ll just defend the “robber barons” and point out the flaws in unions and how peoples lives really got better back then.
Conspiracy theorist? I promise you there is virtually no one who denies the Federal Reserve exists, nor that it is a central bank of the entire country. There’s not much of a conspiracy there. If you’re referring to the Fed being the main catalyst and driver of the Great Depression, I mean, even that’s not an Alex Jones crackpot. Hell Milton Friedman became a Nobel Laureate largely for his Monetary History of the United States work, in which he put forth that very notion back in the 60s. Murray Rothbard was a credentialed economist who argued the Fed was essentially the cause of the GD. Mises and Hayek (another Nobel Laureate) were arguing largely the same thing…to some degree even before it happened.
Even the current chairman of the Federal Reserve (Harvard and MIT alum, and Princeton department chairman and author of multiple economics text books, and former Chairman of the President’s Council of Economic Advisers) openly stated the bank caused the Great Depression.
Yeah. Total conspiracy nutball crackpot notion right there if I ever saw one.
ShaneDK: What Caused the Great Depression ?
No no no, I mean the whole “Fed was created by Morgan bankers or whatever thing”. I’ll definitely talk about it in my paper on the Great Depression.
That’s still misleading, the reason why the Fed caused the GD to those statist economists, is because it didn’t act socialist enough. So I don’t think that’s the best reasoning.
Friedman is pretty bad on the subject, even a mediocre economist like Hayek has a better comprehension of the business cycle, and he’s a Nobel Laureate as well.
I’m sorry…Friedrich Hayek, Ludwig von Mises, and Murray Rothbard were “statist economists”? That’s a new one.
The reasoning makes no difference. They all agree the Federal Reserve is responsible. Which makes it even less of a “conspiracy”. (But that doesn’t even matter, as fegeldolfy said that’s not what he was talking about.)
Nice.
I said that.
?
Well, I can see why that would kind of be outside the scope of any paper you might write in this high school class, but that fact is actually pretty well documented too. See here, in particular Griffin’s The Creature from Jekyll Island.
Yeah my textbook says that the Fed was created after the Panic of 1907 by benevolent bankers like J.P. Morgan to “stabilize credit”. I just think it would be difficult to write a paper along the lines of "Ok,they were bad,but not for the reasons you think, and the reasons you think they’re bad are false". I only get 30 minutes to write it; I’m planning on mainly including a revisionist account of the gilded age and a general critique of unions.
Anyways,update:
This was me inside all during class today:
Seriously,it sucked. Get a load of these gems:
“There was no minimum wage”
“Capitalists were exploiting workers”
“Rich people only care about money”
“The government had to act”
“Regulation,yay!”
Our study question was “Without unions or government,who would control the unabashed wealth of the robber barons?”;my answer was “Why does it need to be controlled?”
We also had a discussion of how to “protect the workers” and “help the economy grow”. I had a pretty funny conversation though:
Person-We should put high tariffs on goods to protect American businesses and stop corporations from shipping jobs overseas.
Me-Why not take it a step further? Why not have Ohio put tariffs on goods from all the other states? Why not have Virginia stop businesses from moving jobs to Illinois? In fact,why stop there? Why not have Seattle put tariffs on goods from Tacoma? Why not have Ballard put tariffs on goods from Fremont? Why not have 15th street put tariffs on goods from 14th street? In fact,why not have every person,everywhere,be completely self sufficient?
Person-That’s not what I meant.
Also,my teacher once again put forward the whole “Rich people don’t care about anyone. They only donate to charity to avoid paying more taxes.”
Say “so what” the next time she says that. “Who cares if they don’t care about anyone. That’s none of your damn business.”
Also, ask her why she doesn’t pay more in taxes. After all, nothing is stopping her from donating beyond her “legal” tax burden.