Your experience with Ron Paul sounds like my experience with Ayn Rand. I can criticize Ayn Rand or Ron Paul while at the same time recognizing that they do some good. They do. Just because I do not donate to the ARI anymore does not mean I think of the ARI as “the enemy”, they are not. They are indeed a bridge to the land of liberty for some people even if they are inconsistent on some things. Same with Ron Paul. Just because I do not donate to the Ron Paul campaign does not mean I think of him as “the enemy”. I think my hard earned money should be donated to causes more in line with my personal philosophy.
I stopped reading when you said an increase in the economy negated the decrease from welfarisim. You might have a point, except that the wealth transfer is one way from the citizens. And that the state is bankrupt from welfarism, and that debt is collectively owned by the citizens, not the illegals who can leave back to the country of their origin.
As far as a source, I wanted a source that Ron Paul has completely alienated hispanics. Do you have any proof for that statement?
A more accurate formulation would be that they support the right of the immigration lobby to privatize the profits realized from immigration and to socialize its costs.
Even granting (and I don’t) the ideological arguments, practically speaking immigration is cultural and political suicide for libertarians; we are importing social democrats at the expense of libertarians. And from the government’s perspective, they’re building a centralized domestic empire, and they don’t even have to go overseas to do it. Immigration is a deliberate, government-engineered expansion of the tax base and the clientele for government services.
The Reason thinktank is a muddled mess. I recall them going thru some ridiculous contortions to justify US government restrictions on US citizens purchasing drugs in Canada.
The only advantage I see to the current government policy of mass, indiscriminate immigration is that it will force the eventual break-up of the US empire along the fault lines separating its constituent nations, and we will finally be reversing a two-century process of centralization. Not that I’m looking forward to my daughter having to witness Balkans-style armed conflicts in her own country.
OK. This is completely incoherent.
First, if “illegals” also pay taxes - which they do - then any “costs” of welfare will be shared.
Second, you should have followed the link to learn why you’re wrong on that too.
Third, the increase in production does offset welfare. If Hispanics were gone, the economy would be in significantly worse shape than if the welfare dole doubled overnight on their account - yes, the welfare you’re talking about is that inconsequential to the federal budget.
Fourth, go back to “their” country? Wow, why don’t you just open up a Budweiser and complain about them taken ur jabs!
If you honestly think that Ron Paul helps libertarians with hispanics now, you’re insane. It’s not directly proveable by positive statistics, but it’s an example of common sense.
Hold on a second, you mean the open borders policy by the government is intentional?
Well gee, why would the state do that? And if the state is intentionally doing it, why would libertarians support it? So many questions!
Except very few Latinos are “social democrats” and more support secession than any White American.
Byzantine loses again.
When will you just admit you’re a racist and get it over with?
All lines of property are invisible, and the fact that some are drawn by governments through expropriation does not in any way make them less real than other people’s, it just makes them the product of war. That means it is quite possible that the government created a real good by drawing borders around the country, around a state, a county, a city, a town or just a post office. To abolish it would be an act of force, as destructive as the act of establishing it by the government was. We should therefore not run around claiming the right to destroy what to many people may be valuable goods, but instead seek a process by which they can become private goods, and available on the free market.
Pure BS. Latin America is one big zero-sum game over government spoils. Let me know when Guatemalans and Hondurans start complaining about all the economic refugees flooding into their countries.
If it is not a product of legitimate labour then it is not property.
To hell with whatever value you xenophobes find from it.
That the governments of latin American are corrupt has nothing to do with Latinos. It’s a product of imperialists, like you.
Do they pay all taxes, or only some?
No it doesn’t. If production paid for welfare, there would not be an unfunded liability deficit of $53+ trillion dollars. What a ridiculous thing to say!
Actually, I am descended from immigrants, and I was an immigrant to another country. And yes, when things went badly, I just went back home. Don’t try to race bait me, you have no idea what race I am or where my sympathies lie.
Do you have a source for my insanity, or are you going to continue to post unsubstantiated opinion as fact?
I know a lot of hispanics, legal and illegal supported Ron Paul in the election. So I’m just curious to know where you got this opinion, or common sense perspective, that he has completely turned off all hispanics. Could it be that you are exercising collectivism by assuming all Hispanics think and vote as an ethnic group, and not as rational individuals acting in their own self-interest?
Who is the racist now?
And who staffs those governments? Latinos, of course. And the ones on the outs hightail it to the evil, imperialist US. Quite a system y’all have down there.
That line is much blurrier than you assume. Often properties that you claim to be illegitimate were built through the only available means provided by the law.
In order to understand that, one has to have built something, sold something, paid taxes, held a steady job, managed a household etc. Practical life experience. If all you have ever done is consume someone else’s production, you can’t relate to the compromises that people make to survive in the world under a state.
Oh, which reminds me, Latin American society is at least as racially stratified as the US.
Organizations like ISIL and The Advocates for Self Government are wonderful organizations that focus on outreach and education. I have donated to both organizations in the past. And the CATO Institute does outreach in multiple languages including languages no other libertarian organization (to my knowledge) even attempts like Arabic, Chinese and Russian. Their efforts are to grow libertarianism by spreading the message of liberty as far and wide as possible. We need to reach as many people as we can without alienating others. And hey, if we reach some “illegal immigrants” and they go back to their home nation after becoming libertarians that is fine with me. Imagine if became a more prosperous country than the through a series of libertarian reforms. Imagine what a boost that would be for libertarianism in the !
I’m a Canadian, send the libertarians up here. We need reinforcements.
I’m all for supporting the orgs. you believe in. I do the same. In fact, I think we should be setting aside profit making activities that we can use to channel funds into the organizations we approve of. Even if it’s working a half day on the weekend, or doing something a couple evenings a week.
You mention Reason, Cato etc. Are you a minarchist?
Really, I subscribe to Reason Magazine and have a big collection of back issues. Can you point me to an article where they have supported “socializing” the costs of immigration?
[citation needed] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed
Ah, so that would explain the walls, cameras, fences, vehicle barriers and, of course, the border patrol. All of these things are there to INCREASE immigration.
Really, I subscribe to Reason Magazine and have a big collection of back issues. Can you point to an article in which they take this position?
The only people likely to support “Balkans-style armed conflicts” are racists and xenophobes. If it comes to that (and I don’t think it will), I will be on whatever side is in OPPOSITION to the racists and xenophobes. I don’t care if most of my opponents “look” more like me or not.
Threads like this make me sad because they highlight the fact that libertarianism will never be anything more than a passing curiosity. The left or the right don’t even have to attack libertarianism since libertarians seem to tear each other down much more efficiently.
I am NOT a minarchist but I once was. I started out as Objectivist, then became minarchist / libertarian then anaracho-capitalist. Like I said earlier in this thread: If you are throwing the ball towards the goal you are on my team. I think that these organizations are shaking people up in their thinking and that is healthy. They are pushing people more towards the light of liberty. What they will NOT be able to do is convince an anarcho-capitalist to go the other direction. Almost all anarcho-capitalists already have heard the minarchist arguments and rejected them at some point. Have you heard of the Fraser Institute? http://www.fraserinstitute.org/