Ron Paul and Invisible Lines Drawn by Government Thugs

[Juan]

@LibertyStudent

Hold on a second, you mean the open borders policy by the government is intentional?

Open borders ? What (the hell) are you talking about ? Do you think that nonsensical claims like that will help you win your nonsensical argument ?

Are you, and Paul, and others, libertarians who believe the NAP can be violated in order to restrict ‘illegal’ immigration ? That is, are you a ‘libertarian’ who oppose the NAP ? A ‘libertarian’ who is not bounded by the only principle that defines libertarianism ? That is weird, no ?

[liberty_student]

Yeah, I lived near the Fraser Institute. I think they are a neocon thinktank.

[Juan]

You can’t give a rational answer, can you ?

[ryanpatgray]

@liberty student

Yeah, I lived near the Fraser Institute. I think they are a neocon thinktank.

The term “neocon” means different things to different people. What positions do they take that you disagree with?

[liberty_student]

@Juan

Open borders ? What (the hell) are you talking about ?

I’m talking about the open US borders North and South which has become a big election issue in the primaries.

@Juan

Do you think that nonsensical claims like that will help you win your nonsensical argument ?

Well, at least they would be consistently nonsensical, yes?

@Juan

Are you, and Paul, and others, libertarians who believe the NAP can be violated in order to restrict ‘illegal’ immigration ?

I can’t speak for anyone else. Maybe you should ask Nicky. He speaks for all hispanics worldwide.

@Juan

That is, are you a ‘libertarian’ who oppose the NAP ?

I am a libertarian who does not oppose the NAP.

@Juan

A ‘libertarian’ who is not bounded by the only principle that defines libertarianism ?

Hmmm. Do you know any libertarians who practice the NAP?

[Juan]

@Stanger

That means it is quite possible that the government created a real good by drawing borders around the country, around a state, a county, a city, a town or just a post office. To abolish it would be an act of force, as destructive as the act of establishing it by the government was.

Amazing. So the ‘rights’ of the criminal state should be respected, which means that the libertarian right to liberty, or ‘free movement’ should be suppressed.

[Juan]

@LibertyStudent

Hold on a second, you mean the open borders policy by the government is intentional?

I’m talking about the open US borders North and South which has become a big election issue in the primaries.

According to you the US currently have ‘open borders’ ?

[liberty_student]

@ryanpatgray

The term “neocon” means different things to different people. What positions do they take that you disagree with?

You’re right. I should have said, globalist. http://www.fraserinstitute.org/Commerce.web/publication_details.aspx?pubID=2512

Btw, the Fraser is a beautiful river. Majestic.

[liberty_student]

@Juan

According to you the US currently have ‘open borders’ ?

There might be a few million people who agree with me. Few of them are liberatarians though.

[Niccolo]

@liberty student

Do they pay all taxes, or only some?

You know what… Actually, I hope they don’t pay any taxes and they take as much welfare as they can get. It’s called bleeding the beast.

I do know that a good portion, however, have to pay the same taxes that most people pay and certainly pay no less than I do - as I pay a minimum of taxes and successfully avoid a lot of sales tax.

@liberty student

No it doesn’t. If production paid for welfare, there would not be an unfunded liability deficit of $53+ trillion dollars. What a ridiculous thing to say!

Of course it does. $30 billion vs. the small amount of taxation that goes into welfare? $30 billion is more.

@liberty student

Actually, I am descended from immigrants, and I was an immigrant to another country. And yes, when things went badly, I just went back home. Don’t try to race bait me, you have no idea what race I am or where my sympathies lie.

Well, if you’re anything but hispanic, you’re a racist.

If you’re hispanic, then you’re a race traitor.

@liberty student

Do you have a source for my insanity, or are you going to continue to post unsubstantiated opinion as fact?

I know a lot of hispanics, legal and illegal supported Ron Paul in the election. So I’m just curious to know where you got this opinion, or common sense perspective, that he has completely turned off all hispanics. Could it be that you are exercising collectivism by assuming all Hispanics think and vote as an ethnic group, and not as rational individuals acting in their own self-interest?

Who is the racist now?

It’s in their self-interest to support a man that wants to kick them out of their rightfully homesteaded land?

Jesus! To hell with self-interest! Give me the commune!

[Niccolo]

@Stranger

@Niccolò

If it is not a product of legitimate labour then it is not property.

To hell with whatever value you xenophobes find from it.

That line is much blurrier than you assume. Often properties that you claim to be illegitimate were built through the only available means provided by the law.

F-uck the law.

The only way to acquire land and make it property is through homesteading it, period.

[Niccolo]

@Byzantine

@Niccolò

When will you just admit you’re a racist and get it over with?

Oh, which reminds me, Latin American society is at least as racially stratified as the US.

That has nothing to do with anything. Kthnxbye.

[Niccolo]

@liberty student

In order to understand that, one has to have built something, sold something, paid taxes, held a steady job, managed a household etc. Practical life experience. If all you have ever done is consume someone else’s production, you can’t relate to the compromises that people make to survive in the world under a state.

If you pay taxes and don’t actively evade them, you’re a real weak f-ucker.

I don’t know how many times I have to tell you this either. I work in sales. I don’t live with my parents, and the only thing they pay for is college, for which there is an agreement that as the oldest son, I will provide for them when they are too old to provide for themselves.

You, however, live in Canada. Please, don’t talk to me anymore about living off of someone else’s dole.

Canada. Lol. It has the high taxes of Europe with none of the tax evasion. By the way, if Latinos are coming to the US for welfare, why not go all the way up to Canada? Surely your system is far more appealing to welfare recipients!

[Byzantine]

@ryanpatgray

Really, I subscribe to Reason Magazine and have a big collection of back issues. Can you point me to an article where they have supported “socializing” the costs of immigration?

If you have immigration in the context of welfare, public roads, public education, birthright citizenship, and anti-discrimination laws, then that is what you are doing.

@ryanpatgray

quote user=“Byzantine”] Even granting (and I don’t) the ideological arguments, practically speaking immigration is cultural and political suicide for libertarians; we are importing social democrats at the expense of libertarians.

[citation needed] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed[
[/quote]
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed[/quote)]

Back at ya. Let me know about all those libertarians crossing the Rio Grande, holding their Spanish editions of Human Action aloft to keep them dry.

@ryanpatgray

Ah, so that would explain the walls, cameras, fences, vehicle barriers and, of course, the border patrol. All of these things are there to INCREASE immigration.

Window dressing for political purposes. The government continues to pursue a policy of mass, indiscriminate immigration and weak border enforcement. Do you seriously contend that there has been LESS immigration post-1965?

@ryanpatgray

Really, I subscribe to Reason Magazine and have a big collection of back issues. Can you point to an article in which they take this position?

Roger Pilon’s disingenuous letter is here: http://www.reason.com/news/show/120946.html.

@ryanpatgray

I will be on whatever side is in OPPOSITION to the racists and xenophobes. I don’t care if most of my opponents “look” more like me or not.

Then I guess you’ll be stuck with all the liberal white people, wandering around with no place to go.

[liberty_student]

@Niccolò

You know what… Actually, I hope they don’t pay any taxes and they take as much welfare as they can get. It’s called bleeding the beast.

Of course you would say that. You don’t produce or pay taxes. It’s easy for you to give away that which is not yours.

@Niccolò

I do know that a good portion, however, have to pay the same taxes that most people pay and certainly pay no less than I do - as I pay a minimum of taxes and successfully avoid a lot of sales tax.

I’m talking about income and payroll taxes.

@Niccolò

Of course it does. $30 billion vs. the small amount of taxation that goes into welfare? $30 billion is more.

No, if production paid for welfare, then libertarianism wouldn’t be able to mount an economic defense against the state. Really, you’re being goofy now and pulling #s out of your behind like you tried to do in the Agorism thread. Spare us the BS.

@Niccolò

Well, if you’re anything but hispanic, you’re a racist.

If you’re hispanic, then you’re a race traitor.

How so?

@Niccolò

It’s in their self-interest to support a man that wants to kick them out of their rightfully homesteaded land?

What land have they homesteaded? They are migrant workers. Employees. Again, you said Paul had completely turned them off. Where is proof of that statement?

[liberty_student]

@Niccolò

F-uck the law.

Why bother going to state school for a degree if you plan on living in jail and being a professional prisoner?

[liberty_student]

@Niccolò

If you pay taxes and don’t actively evade them, you’re a real weak f-ucker.

How would you know? You’re a teenager in college living off his parents.

@Niccolò

I don’t know how many times I have to tell you this either. I work in sales. I don’t live with my parents, and the only thing they pay for is college, for which there is an agreement that as the oldest son, I will provide for them when they are too old to provide for themselves.

I love how your Bio is ever expanding. One day, someone will write a song about you. The Ballad of Niccolo.

@Niccolò

You, however, live in Canada. Please, don’t talk to me anymore about living off of someone else’s dole.

Canada. Lol. It has the high taxes of Europe with none of the tax evasion. By the way, if Latinos are coming to the US for welfare, why not go all the way up to Canada? Surely your system is far more appealing to welfare recipients!

We have a lot of immigrants come here for welfare and jobs, specifically Latinos. In fact, in some southern states, they pay for buses to ship them to Canada so they become our problem. You can criticize Canada all you like, I’m not particularly nationalistic or patriotic.

Then again, your hero SEK3 was a Canadian, so you might want to mull that one over…

[Byzantine]

@Niccolò

That has nothing to do with anything. Kthnxbye.

Well, the next time you rail about racist white Americans, spare a thought for the fact that the mestizos and indigenous peoples are clamoring to live in the US with me than under the Spanish-descended ruling class down there.

[Juan]

@LibertyStudent

@Juan

According to you the US currently have ‘open borders’ ?

There might be a few million people who agree with me.

Is that a ‘yes’ ? You are claiming that anybody can freely enter the US ? You don’t realize your claim is nonsense ?

Do you think that preventing people from crossing political borders is consistent with libertarianism ? Do you think that so called state officials can lawfully use violence against peaceful people ? Does your beloved Paul support the use of violence against innocent people ?

[liberty_student]

Juan, if you don’t stop hyper-ventilating, I am going to make a page on Encyclopedia Dramatica about you.

@Juan

Is that a ‘yes’ ? You are claiming that anybody can freely enter the US ? You don’t realize your claim is nonsense ?

I do not believe this is nonsense. I do believe that border security is lax and ineffective, and anyone can cross the border unannounced, and unrestricted if they want to.

@Juan

Do you think that preventing people from crossing political borders is consistent with libertarianism ? Do you think that so called state officials can lawfully use violence against peaceful people ? Does your beloved Paul support the use of violence against innocent people ?

No, I do not think it is consistent with libertarianism. However, there are literally thousands of things I do not think are consistent with libertarianism. For example, income taxes. Paul is against those. Does he get credit for that? No. He’s against a draft. Does he get credit for that? No. He is against the drug war, does he get credit for that? Nope.

Again, I can’t speak for Paul if he supports the use of violence. If you email his Congressional staff, they can get you answers directly from him. Maybe even an interview opportunity or a copy of Mrs. Paul’s family cookbook.

Do I think state officials can lawfully use violence? Yes. They write and define the laws. I don’t like it, but they do. And even if they didn’t, who is going to stop the state? Are you going to drop everything and place your soft mellon between an innocent immigrant and the policeman’s baton?

Our principles are high. Employing them under duress, is not easy.