Ron Paul vs. RonPaul.com

Hey, Ron, Want Your Own Name?Posted by Lew Rockwell on February 1, 2013 09:48 AM

The other day, the nice young couple who registered LibertyPaul.com offered to give it to Ron. On the other hand, those who registered RonPaul.com are no longer asking more than $800,000. They’ve cut their price to $250,000. For his own name

How Dare Ron Paul Want His Own Name?Posted by Lew Rockwell on February 8, 2013 03:52 PM

Those who took it want a fortune in return. But now that Ron is a private citizen again (yea!), the normal internet rules against cybersquatting apply to him, too. (Thanks to Travis Holte)

Ron Paul wants sites using his name back; site owners demand compensation

Ron Paul files complaint with UN to confiscate domains RonPaul.com and RonPaul.org

Hmm. Would it be too presumptuous to think Bob Wenzel checks out the Mises Forum? Probably.

The Battle Over RonPaul.com

this is awesome. morally its the same as public roads, but for public impact its hilariously inappropriate. its almost like crazy old ron paul has decided to remain public and this combined with the earlier tweet are part of a public information campaign to be the crazy uncle of america so he can keep the platform. he needs to do weekly webcasts. show off his coin collection. still, why didnt you take a pension lol? I wouldnt have given money back either, I would have hired my friends. duh.

This is pretty funny. I heard Ron Paul say he was going to go with RonPaulshomepage.xxx becauase other people had ronpaul.xxx.

I’m kind of bummed that he is trying to sue them through…what a sister agency to the WTO? But, at the same time those people who want huge amounts of money for the domains (five grand might be reasonable) are revealing to us that they are making bank off of those sites and expect to be compensated along those lines…

This is a tough one.

That would be incredibly weird. I can’t see the good doctor using any website with an adult-themed TLD.

Plus they’re way more expensive.

He is? Source?

Here’s Kinsella and Tucker.

From I’ve read, the offer for RonPaul was always for $250,000. PLUS, they offered him RonPaul.org for free.

It’s not the case that they are making a lot of money - they have a lot of info that could be useful to RP on there, like email addresses.

Source?

So?

Really.

A domain ≠ database. No one is even talking about a database. All Paul wants is the ability to control where “ronpaul.com” points to.

According to the documents filed with the UDRP, there was a prior email exchange in which the proprietor asked for $848,000. I noticed that the site admin at RonPaul.com avoided calling that prior offer a lie this time around.

The filing makes pretty clear that he doesn’t care about all of that extra information, he just wants the domains. That’s why I found Jeffrey Tucker’s comment on it pretty absurd:

$250,000 is not unreasonable for the domain. How do we know? Because that’s the market price. It is a scarce good and the market for domain names is entirely authentic – no different from any other private property market.

I was amazed that no one in that comment thread thought that was a pretty ignorant thing to say, given that that price was never just for the domain alone.

hahah, I meant on ALex Jones Ron Paul himself said he would use ronpaulshomepage.___. I just used “xxx” as placeholders for com/net/org, etc. But, i think you knew that.

I thought that the filing of the complaint was equivalent to suing. Instead of going to a court he is going to a transnational bureaucracy which is going to play the arbiting role of the court, right? Plus, the domain holder said they were going to get lawyers.

It wasn’t? Source?

I think there are some issues to be taken with stretching the language like that, but I suppose as long as one understands this isn’t exactly a “lawsuit” (i.e. civil action) brought in a court of law, it could suffice for simplicity sake.

Why doesn’t he just buy it from them?

Because it is a shit ton of money.

It’s right in the Letter to Ron Paul or their latest screed:

If you do insist on obtaining RonPaul.com (it is the best Ron Paul related domain name), we could relocate our grassroots site elsewhere and sell you the domain name at its current market price of $250,000. That would include a copy of our 170,000 strong RonPaul.com email list; these supporters proactively signed up for our email updates, they expect and welcome frequent communications, and they are completely “untapped” in terms of donations. This means that you (and/or Campaign for Liberty) could easily make back the purchase price in a matter of days. Only you can put this list to its best possible use, which is why we’d include it as a free bonus with RonPaul.com.

. . .

Our offer went on to explain that in case Ron Paul insisted on obtaining RonPaul.com, we would prepare a complete liberty package consisting of RonPaul.com and our 170k mailing list.

The value we put on the deal was $250k; we are getting our mailing list appraised right now but we are confident it is easily worth more than $250k all by itself.

Notice that in the first item they said the value of the domain is $250K and the mailing list was a free bonus; now they’re talking about a “liberty package” and how the value of the mailing list justifies their asking price. So which is it? Is the mailing list free or isn’t it?

Some other interesting posts on Facebook about this situation:

This is standard operating procedure in the web development, marketing and branding industry. Our company holds several trademarks, and if someone violates our trademark, we will go after them too. Ron Paul spent a lot more money and a lot more time than these guys building his name. He also legally holds the trademark for his name.

http://www.icann.org/en/help/dndr/udrp/policy

When they registered their domain name as a .COM, they agreed to the UDRP policy, particularly section 4:

a. Applicable Disputes. You are required to submit to a mandatory administrative proceeding in the event that a third party (a “complainant”) asserts to the applicable Provider, in compliance with the Rules of Procedure, that

(i) your domain name is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark or service mark in which the complainant has rights; and

(ii) you have no rights or legitimate interests in respect of the domain name; and

(iii) your domain name has been registered and is being used in bad faith.

In the administrative proceeding, the complainant must prove that each of these three elements are present.

Section 4b(iv) is also applicable

(iv) by using the domain name, you have intentionally attempted to attract, for commercial gain, Internet users to your web site or other on-line location, by creating a likelihood of confusion with the complainant’s mark as to the source, sponsorship, affiliation, or endorsement of your web site or location or of a product or service on your web site or location.

. . .

When ronpaul.com was purchased it came under law governed by ICANN. There is no way avoiding this FACT even if one was in ignorance of the law at the time of the domain purchase.

Read the complaint. Tim Martin is seeking undue enrichment, clearly, from the use of Ron Paul’s name. It really is that simple.

When you register a domain, in accordance with ICANN policies, you warrant that you’re not infringing on the rights of a third party and also agree to arbitration if a third party submits a claim. This arbitration process is outlined in what’s called the Uniform Domain-Name Dispute-Resolution Policy, or UDRP, and includes certain criteria such as trademark infringement and “bad faith”, both of which RP seems to be focusing on in his UDRP complaint. The WIPO, a UN agency, is one of several organizations authorized by ICANN to offer this arbitration service for a fee.

Ron Paul is the owner of RON PAUL U.S. trademark. Ron Paul has acquired rights in the mark by virtue of it’s use within the United States, including a large volume of sales of Dr. Paul’s books. The RON PAUL mark has achieved a secondary meaning associated with Ron Paul sufficient to establish common law trademark rights. RON PAUL has long been associated with Dr. Paul’s books, articles, public appearances, and political commentary.”

On the 7th page of Ron Paul’s complaint. The fun part begins on the 7th page:

http://www.ronpaul.com/images/Complaint.pdf

Obvious future result is obvious…

If you are claiming to have bought the domain only to keep the “enemy” from buying it, and then turn around and try to squeeze $250,000.00 (down from $840,000) from Ron Paul for it you get what you deserve…"

. . .

Voluntary agreement to a contract is the main tenet of the free market. By agreeing to ICANN’s policies, RonPaul.com falls under UDPR and is subject to the requirements. Many may think Paul may be wrong headed in filing a complaint, but under Ronpaul.com’s contract it is legit and the process is required.

Bingo. That shows they’re full of shit. “Liberty package”? Who the fuck do they think they are? QVC?

Keep in mind, I think the whole thing is ridiculous because Paul’s complaint is based in trademark law. While that is an interesting argument about the registrant agreeing to the terms of the UDRP, I think in terms of a libertarian outlook, it’s a moot point. The last comment you quote talks about “main tenet of the free market”…sure, contract is…but de jure monopoly and “intellectual property” aren’t. Those things are both unlibertarian.

Essentially to own a domain you have to agree to this UDRP.

Obviously there’s two things wrong with this.

  1. The relevant grounds in this case (as the commenter outlined) are: “When you register a domain, in accordance with ICANN policies, you warrant that you’re not infringing on the rights of a third party”…and as far as I can tell, the only “rights” they’re talking about are faux “intellectual property” rights. So the issue falls on its face there, as far as the libertarian is concerned. If the only complaint that you can file is that your “intellectual property rights” are being infringed, then you have no (libertarian) case.

  2. The argument that “these respondants argeed to the terms of the ‘contract’ when they registered the domain” isn’t strong either, as it is essentially a monopolistic set of terms which are the only way one may come to own a domain. In other words, there would be no such mandatory agreement in a free society.

So not only are the premises of the agreement at odds with libertarian principles, but the nature of the agreement itself is as well.

As Kinsella said:

Put it this way: in a free society, there would be no reputation rights, no IP law, no trademark, no copyright, no right of publicity, so I doubt the private companies running the internet infrastructure woudl ever have a quasi-IP-based domain name dispute policy in the first place.

John James wrote the following post at Sat, Feb 9 2013 7:02 PM:

*Hey, Ron, Want Your Own Name?*Posted by Lew Rockwell on February 1, 2013 09:48 AM

The other day, the nice young couple who registered LibertyPaul.com offered to give it to Ron. On the other hand, those who registered RonPaul.com are no longer asking more than $800,000. They’ve cut their price to $250,000. For his own name

RonPaul.org or RonPaul.com are not his own name. Not more then Torsten.com would be my name.

*How Dare Ron Paul Want His Own Name?*Posted by Lew Rockwell on February 8, 2013 03:52 PM

Those who took it want a fortune in return. But now that Ron is a private citizen again (yea!), the normal internet rules against cybersquatting apply to him, too. (Thanks to Travis Holte)

Ron Paul isn’t a trade mark. There are no exclusive rights to that name. If I cal my dog RonPaul that doesn’t mean that Ron Paul can now demand it for free.

Ron Paul wants sites using his name back; site owners demand compensation

And rightfully so. What is more disturbing is that he’s crying for Courts and some UN-organisation to do the forced expropriation for him. Was his libertarian stance just a publicity stunt?

a) The root source of the possibility of this conflict - and there are zillions of such conflicts every year - is the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers. To be more precise, it is the nature of the Top-Level Domain structure dating back to the days of ARPANet, whereby names were simply assigned on a non-economic basis. As always, government is inevitably involved wherever there is mischief.

b) There are long-run technical solutions to this problem which may, one day, be adopted if we are ever lucky enough to see the expansion of freedom and liberty around the globe. The problem is precisely analogous to that of assigned leaders, versus natural leaders whose leadership is recognized rather than imposed. An attributive network would simply function on the basis of recognition… ronpaul.com directs to the Ron Paul because that’s what routers and users want… what Ron Paul wants or what pretenders to a ronpaul.com domain want is immaterial. Sure, it’s Utopia, but all the technical problems have been solved (certain components of Bitcoin, for example, already employ this kind of technology).

c) That said, we don’t live in Utopia. If you stole $1,000 from Ron Paul, he’d have to file a police complaint with the government (dun dun DUNNN) just like anybody else. And not all the rules are fair. But it’s unfair to ask libertarians to never use the unfair rules in their own favor… after all, we are all victimized by the same unfairness. A friend of mine commenting on the disbarring of a lawyer for fundamentally unjust reasons - even though everything was “by the books” - was that the lawyer in question knew what the (admittedly, fundamentally unfair) rules were that he chose to break and he voluntarily chose to bear the consequences of this when 1) he got to the bar and 2) broke the rules.

d) Thus, it is not necessarily unfair to be called to account for breaking unfair rules that everybody else has to abide by. Yes, it’s distorted but this is, in fact, the way that all of us live day-to-day, dealing with absurd traffic tickets and unfair tax laws and economic regulations of all kinds. We “pass the buck” of civilly-accepted-unfairness on to the next guy, so to speak.

The question here is whether Ron Paul is or is not entitled to the domain under the rules as they are, not as we imagine they ought to be in Utopia. Paul has filed with this commission and I think that the appropriate course of action is for the owners of the domain to disengage from a PR battle and, instead, make a better offer to Dr. Paul. If they’re sure he’s wrong according to the rules-as-they-are, then it looks like it will be Dr. Paul who will need to make a better offer.

I fully sympathize with the frustration of the domain owners. They were “the first to use” this domain. I would be upset if I was in their shoes. But, at the same time, they walked into it knowing these are the rules. It is silly for them to expect special treatment from Ron Paul on the basis of imagined Utopian ideals and it is downright childish for them to go into this PR attack. If they have a good case, they should make that case in the appointed forum, regardless of the fundamental unfairness and stupidity of the TLD system run by ICANN, which is irrelevant to the dispute at hand. I wish them luck and I think if they play their chips right they may actually be able to secure a reasonable purchase price for the domain-name… but I think they shot themselves in the foot in this regard by opening a PR battle.

Clayton -

You are wrong.

They are trying to sell him something he doesn’t want from them.

Who cares if they want to give him their database along with the domain, that is not what he wants from them. It is obvious they are using this database thing to justify (to the public) the price of what he does want from them.

Since the domain is all Paul wants from them, and 250,000 is what he must pay to get it, then that is indeed the price of what he wants.

Agreed.

I’m relieved to learn the UN thing is a complaint rather than a lawsuit, but if the complaint is being made on grounds of trademark rules then that’s stil problematic. I can’t condone that.

I don’t think it would be Ron Paul who would have standing to sue, but rather anyone who gets tricked by the Ron Paul website in believing it’s actually affiliated with Ron Paul. And as far as I know, it’s common knowledge that the website is not officially affiliated with Ron Paul.

…Or one would at least hope people would be able to figure it out:

“This site is run by independent grassroots supporters of Ron Paul.”