Sociology and Economics

So here is the question:

What does sociology have to do with economics? If one were to major in sociology, how much would s/he learn about economics?

I’m asking, because I’ve seen some people with a degree in sociology called “economists” (mainly liberals who don’t understand basic economic concepts). So, basically, I’ve been thinking about getting a degree in sociology and possibly calling myself an economist as well. :-p

Anyways, I know that sociology deals with economics a little bit, but I’m not sure how much.

Isn’t sociology a code word for marxism ? =P

Sociology is a mystery discipline to me, but I do know that not all sociologists are raging Marxoids (e.g Weber wasn’t one.) I’d be interested in seeing sociology constructed on the basis of Austrian principles, as Hoppe, Hayek and some Austrians have already begun to do.

-Jon

But Weber was a social democrat of sorts ? And the term was coined I think by positivist Comte, who can’t be precisely regarded as a friend of liberty…On the other hand, Herbert Spencer devoted some of his time to ‘sociology’ - but in his case sociology was close to radical libertarianism I guess.

Herbert Spencer was a Marxist? News to me… :stuck_out_tongue:

If you take Max Weber’s definition,

“Sociology is a science which attempts the interpretive understanding of social action to arrive at a casual explanation of its course and effects. Sociology seeks to formulate type concepts and generalized uniformities of empirical processes. (History, on the other hand, is interested in the causal analysis of particular events, actions or personalities.)”

And if we take Lional Robbins’ definition of economics (he’s taken it from others but whatever.),

“Economics is the science which studies human behaviour as a relationship between ends and scarce means which have alternative uses.”

(Robbins, Lionel (1945). An Essay on the Nature and Significance of Economic Science. London: Macmillan and Co., Limited., p. 16)

then it is obvious that sociology is a branch of economics. It deals with social interaction whereas economics deals with all action.

True, Weber wasn’t much of a liberal either. I think William Sumner would’ve been a better example.

-Jon

You could just as easily say that economics is a code word for democratic welfare statism.

Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that sociology is a branch of praxeology just like economics, and that economics and sociology overlap some?

News to me too =] I know “Social Statics” could be regarded partly as ‘sociology’ and I know “Social Statics” is a radical libertarian manifesto. (maybe my post mentioning Spencer was badly worded)

Well, yes - and depending on who you ask, that’s true. I do realize that sociology need not be biased to the left. It just seems to me that the majority of the people involved in the field are sympathetic to the left, though.

Maybe. It depends on what you think the scope of economics and sociology. But I don’t think there is anything within the scope of sociology that is not also within the scope of economics.

By the same token, the majority of economics is also biased towards welfare statism.

As another poster put it, sociology and economics could be considered branches of praxeology, which is why I’m interested in sociology ATM.

I actually had Hayek in mind while posting this thread.

Well I certainly think Austrianism could do with thinkers versed and interested in sociology, to provide an Austrian critique of the discipline, and reconstruction of it, much like the Austrian School has done in economics (if we ignore the fact that in the case of economics the AS was foundational.) If you’re considering entering academia it’d be a good way of doing so IMO.

-Jon

You are probably correct in that sociology is within the branch of economics. I know very little in regards to sociology, but from what I understand sociology deals with human interaction outside the realm of economic exchange in areas regarding relationships, such as friendship and marriage, and culture.

I believe sociology also examines social stratification, so that may help to explain why so many leftists are in the field. They get a degree which, as far as the media is concerned, gives them authority to complain about economic classes, and advance class warfare without ever having to study economics. Not that contemporary economics teaches anything about the harmonious nature of economic interaction. I am just guessing the sociology degree is easier to obtain.

I could be incorrect, but I believe there are a few differences between sociology and economics, although not many. I need to take a social science elective anyway, so I may end up taking a sociology course to see what sociology is about.

Probably, since sociology is the study of the structure of society, which is a product of human action. Either that or praxeology could be said to be a tool necessary for properly studying sociology and the other social sciences, the way mathematics is for the physical sciences.

I think sociology and praxeology are converse aproaches to the sciences of human action.

The wealth capitalism has brought to mankind is not an achievement of a mythical force called progress. Neither is it an achievement of the natural sciences and of the application of their teachings for the perfection of technology and therapeutics. No technological and therapeutical improvements can be practically utilized if the material means for its utilization have not been previously made available by saving and capital accumulation. The reason why not everything about the production and the use of which technology provides information can be made accessible to everybody is the insufficiency of the supply of capital accumulated. What transformed the stagnant conditions of the good old days into the activism of capitalism was not changes in the natural sciences and in technology, but the adoption of the free enterprise principle. The great ideological movement that started with the Renaissance, continued in the Enlightenment, and in the nineteenth century culminated in Liberalism[4] produced both capitalism—the free market economy—and its political corollary or—as the Marxians have to say, its political “superstructure”—representative government and the individuals’ civic rights: freedom of conscience, of thought, of speech, and of all other methods of communication. It was in the climate created by this capitalistic system of individualism that all the modern intellectual achievements thrived. Never before had mankind lived under conditions like those of the second part of the nineteenth century, when, in the civilized countries, the most momentous problems of philosophy, religion, and science could be freely discussed without any fear of reprisals on the part of the powers that be. It was an age of productive and salutary dissent.

A countermovement evolved, but not from a regeneration of the discredited sinister forces that in the past had made for conformity. It sprouted from the authoritarian and dictatorial complex deeply inwrought in the souls of the many who were benefited by the fruits of freedom and individualism without having contributed anything to their growing and ripening. The masses do not like those who surpass them in any regard. The average man envies and hates those who are different.

What pushes the masses into the camp of socialism is, even more than the illusion that socialism will make them richer, the expectation that it will curb all those who are better than they themselves are. The characteristic feature of all utopian plans from that of Plato down to that of Marx is the rigid petrification of all human conditions. Once the “perfect” state of social affairs is attained, no further changes ought to be tolerated. There will no longer be any room left for innovators and reformers.

In the intellectual sphere the advocacy of this intolerant tyranny is represented by positivism. Its champion, Auguste Comte, did not contribute anything to the advancement of knowledge. He merely drafted the scheme of a social order under which, in the name of progress, science, and humanity, any deviation from his own ideas was to be prohibited.

The intellectual heirs of Comte are the contemporary positivists. Like Comte himself, these, advocates of “Unified Science,” of panphysicalism, of “logical” or “empirical positivism,” and of “scientific” philosophy did not themselves contribute to the advancement of the natural sciences. The future historians of physics, chemistry, biology, and physiology will not have to mention their names and their work. All that “Unified Science” brought forward was to recommend the proscription of the methods applied by the sciences of human action and their replacement by the methods of the experimental natural sciences. It is not remarkable for that which it contributed, but only for that which it wants to see prohibited. Its protagonists are the champions of intolerance and of a narrow-minded dogmatism.

Historians have to understand the political, economic, and intellectual conditions that brought about positivism, old and new. But the specific historical understanding of the milieu out of which definite ideas developed can neither justify nor reject the teachings of any school of thought. It is the task of epistemology to unmask the fallacies of positivism and to refute them.

That is from chapter 7 The Epistemological Roots of Monism section 5. The Fallacies of Positivism The book is The Ultimate Foundations of Economic Science

Also a helpfull tidbit from chapter11 of Theory and History…

  1. The Concept of the Social Sciences

The collectivist philosophy denies that there are such things as individuals and actions of individuals. The individual is merely a phantom without reality, an illusory image invented by the pseudo philosophy of the apologists of capitalism. Consequently collectivism rejects the concept of a science of human action. As it sees it, the only legitimate treatment of those problems that are not dealt with by the traditional natural sciences is provided by what they call the social sciences.

The social sciences are supposed to deal with group activities. In their context the individual counts only as a member of a group.[1] But this definition implies that there are actions in which the individual does not act as a member of a group and which therefore do not interest the social sciences. If this is so, it is obvious that the social sciences deal only with an arbitrarily selected fraction of the whole field of human action.

In acting, man must necessarily choose between various possible modes of acting. Limiting their analysis to one class of actions only, the social sciences renounce in advance any attempt to investigate the ideas that determine the individuals choice of a definite mode of conduct. They cannot deal with judgments of value which in any actual situation make a man prefer acting as a group member to acting in a different manner. Neither can they deal with the judgments of value that prompt a man to act as a member of group A rather than as a member of any of the non-A groups.

Man is not the member of one group only and does not appear on the scene of human affairs solely in the role of a member of one definite group. In speaking of social groups it must be remembered that the members of one group are at the same time members of other groups. The conflict of groups is not a conflict between neatly integrated herds of men. It is a conflict between various concerns in the minds of individuals.

What constitutes group membership is the way a man acts in a concrete situation. Hence group membership is not something rigid and unchangeable. It may change from case to case. The same man may in the course of a single day perform actions each of which qualifies him as a member of a different group. He may contribute to the funds of his denomination and cast his ballot for a candidate who antagonizes that denomination in essential problems. He may act at one instant as a member of a labor union, at another as a member of a religious community, at another as a member of a political party, at another as a member of a linguistic or a radical group, and so on. Or he may act as an individual working to earn more income, to get his son into college, to purchase a home, a car, or a refrigerator. In fact he always acts as an individual, always seeks ends of his own. In joining a group and acting as a member of it, he aims no less at the fulfillment of his own wishes than in acting without any reference to a group.
He may join a religious community in order to seek the salvation of his soul or to attain peace of mind. He may join a labor union because he believes that this is the best means to get higher pay or to avoid being bodily injured by the members of the union. He may join a political party because he expects that the realization of its program will render conditions more satisfactory for himself and his family.

It is vain to deal with “the activities of the individual as a member of a group”[2] while omitting other activities of the individual. Group activities are essentially and necessarily activities of individuals who form groups in order to attain their ends. There are no social phenomena which would not originate from the activities of various individuals. What creates a group activity is a definite end sought by individuals and the belief of these individuals that cooperating in this group is a suitable means to attain the end sought. A group is a product of human wishes and the ideas about the means to realize these wishes. Its roots are in the value judgments of individuals and in the opinions held by individuals about the effects to be expected from definite means.

To deal with social groups adequately and completely, one must start from the actions of the individuals. No group activity can be understood without analyzing the ideology that forms the group and makes it live and work. The idea of dealing with group activities without dealing with all aspects of human action is preposterous. There is no field distinct from the field of the sciences of human action that could be investigated by something called the social sciences.

What prompted those who suggested the substitution of the social sciences for the sciences of human action was, of course, a definite political program. In their eyes the social sciences were designed to obliterate the social philosophy of individualism. The champions of the social sciences invented and popularized the terminology that characterizes the market economy, in which every individual is intent upon the realization of his own plan, as a planless and therefore chaotic system and reserves the term “plan” for the designs of an agency which, supported by or identical with the government’s police power, prevents all citizens from realizing their own plans and designs. One can hardly overrate the role which the association of ideas generated by this terminology plays in shaping the political tenets of our contemporaries.

So, for me sociology is the collectivist study of grouping folks together so that their individuality may be levelled.

I don’t dig stereotyping.

It’s still the morning, so I will read the rest of your post later (I find BankRun’s posts to be quite interesting :slight_smile: ), but if you put it that way, sociology is a tool that would be invaluable with other disciplines, in evaluating the behaviors of groups.

Perhaps in the same way that capitalists distinguish from capitalism & state-capitalism, could one distinguish between sociology & state-sociology?

Yes it can be abused, and may have deep rooted history with the state (why wouldn’t the state want to evulate the very groups & individuals within those groups it rules over?), but this would still be a valuable thing to use even in a stateless society, if not even more so.

For instance, the neo-darwinian theory of Memetics, as well as other theories, specifically Emergence (how complex systems and patterns arise out of a multiplicity of relatively simple interactions; i.e., interactions within the free market, etc.), would be very good tools for not only analyzing said stateless society and/or free market, but for also spreading around the knowledge of said concepts to those of other political affiliations, but whom have an interest in sociology regardless.

With regards to the OP, I think future new sciences, more likley those that are hybrids of existing ones (an example being Howard Bloom’s Omnology, although not much being a manifesto has been prepared: http://www.bigbangtango.org/website/OmnologistManifesto.htm. A more current example would be memetics, which borrows from numerous sciences & psychological theories…) will probably connect economics & sociology in ways we either cannot imagine or cannot currently prove.

Your quotes don’t really explain this statement. I can show examples of economists treating people as collectives, would this be a fair representation of all economists and the field of study known as economics? The strange thing is that you just committed an act you said you don’t “dig.”

It seems to me that proper sociology is nothing other than a different branch of praxeology separated from economics. One could argue that Hayek began the foray into sociology from an Austrian POV.