What are your thoughts on Molyneux’s states as farms comparison? I’m not generally a fan of his but these recent series of video’s have been fairly interesting.
Best comparison to date. But I’m a fan of his.
I like it. A lot.
I’d say that the state is one part protection racket, one part religion.
I don’t think it is either of those things. It is a racket, but more like a slavery ring than a protection racket.
but more like a slavery ring
Barring certain Sovietesque periods, I do not think that is a very good analogy. The definition of slavery ought to be confined to direct ownership of persons. State slavery is certainly possible, as is private slavery, but organized robbery is not the same as claiming direct ownership of a person.
Hell, you can even have capitalist slavery; i.e. a person agrees to sell their entire body.
If you cannot own property, then you cannot be robbed. Do you OWN any property?
Let me finish that MT for you 
But I can be robbed.
Therefore, I can own property.
If you cannot own property, then you cannot be robbed. Do you OWN any property?
I fail to see how these are connected to slavery as an analogy for the state.
I do, in fact, own property. Why? Because it is generally tolerated that I use many things how I please, and further, some things that might not be tolerated or legal under statute law are nonetheless so incompetently enforced that my property extends much further, in fact, than it does in law.
I own an apartment, a car, computers and lesser stuff.
But I can be robbed.
Therefore, I can own property.
Yes, this seems like a rather obvious. The state can engage in slavery - conscription for example - but this is not the typical model. Partly because it is so inefficient and pisses so many people off that it endangers the state itself.
I get the point Stefan is making though. If the fruits of our labor belong to us why is it taken from us? The example given is that the state thinks that they have more of a claim to the fruits of my labor than I do. Which is a synonymous concept to slavery.
Does the cow have more rights to it’s milk then the farm owner? If you understand this relationship then you could understand the comparison Stefan makes with human’s being the governments cash crop.
“I own an apartment, a car, computer and lesser stuff.”
Stop paying your taxes and see how far that ownership extends. Why do you have to have a license to drive a car?
I could say that all thats happened here is that you’ve been granted permission to employ capital granted to you by a state.
I could say that all thats happened here is that you’ve been granted permission to employ capital granted to you by a state.
Except that that is literally false, and obviously so.
Stop paying your car loan and see how far your ownership extends!
How is that even remotely comparable?
Why do you pay taxes then? Do you own any kind of property?
Why do you pay taxes then?
Because they take them automatically and the convenience store won’t agree to take the sales tax off the top for me.
Do you own any kind of property?
Are you just going to repeat this nonsense? You and LS have already had two answers to this question, I suggest you either make some argument connecting it or just stop with it already.
Whoa, relax. I’m not trying to push your buttons. I missed the answer you provided. Are you referring to an answer you stated or someone elses?
Do you live in the states? Do you pay state or federal income tax?
I asked you why you pay taxes. You said because they make you.(Paraphrasing). Thats the equivilent of. Why are you a slave? Because they make me be a slave.
So I missed your arguments above. I’m not sure exactly what your arguing, or even trying to refute for that matter.
Are you referring to an answer you stated or someone elses?
Mine, earlier, was that I own a lot of stuff; more than I legally do actually because the government sucks at enforcing laws.
Do you live in the states? Do you pay state or federal income tax?
They have a withholding tax which ends up being more than they actually expect me to pay. So I don’t directly pay out taxes, though they end up getting taken out of my earnings anyways.
You said because they make you.
Well, more like I never had a choice to begin with. There is no feasible option for me to be paid without having income withheld and sales taxes and duties being including in the price of goods. Though, I might add, that sales taxes are actually a tax on the producer and not the consumer, because I was obviously willing to buy it at the higher price anyways.
Thats the equivilent of. Why are you a slave? Because they make me be a slave.
No, it’s not because slavery is actively enforced and not some sort of institutional robbery that I have no direct involvement with at all. Furthermore, there is a clear distinction between slavery and robbery on two points: 1) that a capital market exists, and thus state slavery is de facto not true (otherwise we’d be in a socialist country) and 2) that slavery is literally direct ownership of a person, and not intervention with the exercise of his power. No existing state I am aware of claims to actually own its citizens beyond some small subsection of conscripts. But it does claim the right to piecemeal interfere with certain kinds of transactions.
I am betting scineram ASKED for a license.
You don’t own anything. You may possess things, but there is no legal regime that supports you owning anything, including yourself.
I really wish libertarians would stop being so naive about the state, and assuming the role of victim.