The evolution towards freedom: thoughts on panarchy and minarchy

Hundreds of millions of potential casualties in the Euro-Asiatic theaters of World War III live. I do not see how we can overrate the technology that allowed for this to happen.

As for nukes being rendered obsolete, I do not see that coming. I just cannot conceive of a technology that could do that. But if that ever happens, we’ll be back to the slowly centralizing world of global wars and totalitarianism we had until 1945. Nothing to do about it than.

Now, I discussed briefly in a post above why I do not fear some nut jobs getting nukes in a panarchic world. Nukes would settle on the hands of the smallest entities that could hold them. The nuke any fundamentalist might get would magically get stolen in the night. I’d trust PMC’s to do a much, much better ‘counter-terrorist’ job than current behemoth governments who cannot win wars against illiterate peasants.

Centinel

Your posts are objective, rational and independent thinking which is rare for this site.

I was thinking the same about yours–you were addressing me, I hope. Frankly, I’ve been disappointed by the level of discourse at this forum, present company excepted. It seems to be more of a social site, where like-minded utopian libertarians mutually ignore the realities around them, as some sort of escapist intellectual exercise. I commend you on your patience; I’m running out, myself.

Centinel

Anarchists are of the deluded opinion that ancap society would be peaceful when nothing could be further from the truth for the following reasons:

Very impressive. I was wondering what it would take to make the case stick against ancap autonomy–such that no response, however non-responsive or snarky, would be forthcoming. Apparently, you have the gift. And I totally support your analysis.

Daryl, I and others in this forum have repeatedly refuted Centinel’s “arguments” in other threads. So I wouldn’t be so hasty to jump to such a conclusion.

How many more times (beyond a hundred) would you need your strawmen destroyed before you stop erecting them again, and again?

When was the last time you’ve seen someone benefiting from this “plunder of war”? What is it with you neocons and your fetish about destruction, aggression, and defense? What happened to you in your childhoods that has made you feel so afraid and vulnerable?

Perhaps you could help yourself by replying to my questions about these supposedly frightening realities. I know it must be hard to get unplugged from the Matrix but, for the sake of reality, please give it a try. Entertain the possibility that the fear of the big bad world out there has been implanted in your head for a reason.

How many more times (beyond a hundred) would you need your strawmen destroyed before you stop erecting them again, and again? – z1235

You have never debunked any of my arguments denouncing ancap society.

For example, I will expose the absurdity of your recent comment below:

When was the last time you’ve seen someone benefiting from this “plunder of war”? What is it with you neocons and your fetish about destruction, aggression, and defense? What happened to you in your childhoods that has made you feel so afraid and vulnerable? – z1235

If societal actors don’t benefit from war, then why have these states and non-state actors waged wars for thousands of years without pause ??

It is painfully obvious to any rational, objective and independent thinking observer – that the use of armed force to obtain desired economic, political and social goals is without question effective in many cases by so many successful actors throughout history – Greece, Rome, Britain, USA, China, et al. Moreover, it is absurd to discount the myriad conflicts in human history as irrational and of no benefit to those that initiate them.

Indeed, it is an amusing paradox that the same pacifist ancaps who rant against the effectiveness of ‘destruction, aggression, and defense’ are themselves denied freedom by those who use coercive means to gain power and plunder.

I think Einstein had a name for this type of thinking. For example, ancaps repeatedly rejecting coercive means to promote their self-interests and expecting to some day wake up free from statist coercion. You have to give them credit though, they are far more patient than even the most rabid muslim jihadist.

Now, I discussed briefly in a post above why I do not fear some nut jobs getting nukes in a panarchic world. Nukes would settle on the hands of the smallest entities that could hold them. The nuke any fundamentalist might get would magically get stolen in the night. I’d trust PMC’s to do a much, much better ‘counter-terrorist’ job than current behemoth governments who cannot win wars against illiterate peasants. – Merlin

Convincing point, I have always argued that ancap military agencies would be far more effective and lethal than any government military force. Actually, the military force within liberal democracies are intentionally decentralized and limited so as to prevent the emergence of a dictatorship. However, they are always fighting other statist foes so any deficiencies cancel out thereby giving the most free economy a greater advantage in material and technology.

As for nukes being rendered obsolete, I do not see that coming. I just cannot conceive of a technology that could do that. But if that ever happens, we’ll be back to the slowly centralizing world of global wars and totalitarianism we had until 1945. Nothing to do about it than. --Merlin

Then you disagree with my argument that a geopolitik of liberal democracy will be violent ?

Note that I challenged any ancap drone to a $1000 bet that a list I provided of higher order liberal democracies wouldn’t fight a war in the next ten years and there were no takers to this bet. In addition, I planned to have an impartial broker manage both the bet and the funds with interest paid during the ten year period, and still no takers.

FYI, this is the list:

Andorra
Australia
Austria
Bahamas
Barbados
Belgium
Canada
Cape Verde
Chile
Costa Rica
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Dominica
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Hungary
Iceland
Ireland
Kiribati
Liechtenstein
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Malta
Marshall Islands
Micronesia
Nauru
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Palau
Poland
Portugal
Saint Kitts and Nevis
Saint Lucia
San Marino
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Tuvalu
United Kingdom
United States
Uruguay

I will even add Japan and Greece into the mix even though they are not considered higher order democracies by my source: Freedom House.

Be warned!

Amusingly, I have a bevy of trolls that follow me from thread to thread. I have learned not to feed them, and they have reduced their minor annoyances.

D**uring times of war, particularly a defensive war, a balanced budget would be an unnecessary impediment to victory. And if one begins to allow exceptions for war here, and a “crisis” there, as would surely be the case, then opportunistic, pandering politicians would erode the amendment until it was meaningless. – DLD

The 10% number is based loosely on the Rahn Curve that shows maximum societal economic growth when government spending hovers around 10-15%. Moreover, defense spending is more than adequate at 5% – indeed the extra 5% would be insurance and pay for law enforcement, statistical analysis and data collection, judiciary, congress, et al.

Why should the federal government be entitled to more money than it may require? And why should it receive less than it does legitimately require? And if the fed serves functions that the states cannot provide for themselves, like military defense, why should they not all pay for them equally? – DLD

again the 10% is based on empirical analysis which could be adjusted by Congress as needed. And the states would be paying an equal amount based on GDP. However a more competitive standard would be to charge each state based on population so as to encourage state fiscal and monetary policies to be economically effective or face temporary Federal takeover – hence bankruptcy and ‘restructuring’ proceedings.

Representative government was based upon a two-hundred-year-old assumption that the People cannot determine for themselves what is best for them. – DLD

I agree that the People most definitely know what is best for themselves – indeed this self-interest is what drives crony capitalism.

Indeed, power goes to those in society who most aggressively pursue their own self-interests – not those whose self-interests most benefit society.

Hence, a representative government is needed to check self-interest driven by political machinations. Under a pure democracy I believe that 50.1% will vote to plunder the 49.9%. However, I dont have a problem with the people pursuing self-interest within a free market since they are slaves to the consumer within this framework and of course in every voluntary exchange both parties benefit otherwise no exchange would be made in the first place.

Why tax rates at all? I don’t accept that government is entitled to a “cut” of others’ every transaction. Government ought not be a profit-making enterprise. I prefer pay-as-you-serve – DLD

I agree, then what is your solution to funding national defense which I assume you believe is necessary. Moreover, in order for a military force to be an effective deterrent, it must be funded in peacetime. Hence, where and how does the money come from to maintain a strong military ?

IN sum, I dont see where your source for funding government comes from in your scenario.

I require all programs to be re-authorized every year, myself. But I want government to be as fluid as possible, so as to handle every eventuality, and to teach what lessons the People must learn. – DLD

I agree that government must be nimble to handle emergencies dealing with national defense. However, I believe that the best means to deal with any societal problems either man-made or natural is a strong, fluid, and nimble private economy – not a strong, fluid and nimble government.

No administrative rule or regulation, except those indispensible to the protection of public safety, shall be enforceable where, regarding the regulated, a presumption of malice, neglect or imbecility inheres in the requirements thereof: But any irreparable injury to person or to property, private or public, whose proximate cause is a business or governmental standard or procedure violative of due care and common sense shall nullify the limited liability or the official immunity of the authorizing and enforcing officers, respectively, both in civil and in criminal suits. – DLD

I like this, however if you want a nimble and fluid government – then subjecting bureaucrats to criminal prosecution is counter productive to your goals. Nonetheless, if government mistakes can be punished, then this rule alone would be enough destroy government completely. In the very least, it would make bureaucrats far more cautious and hesitant than ever before thereby rendering them useless and simply cashing paychecks for doing nothing but shuffling paper – which is what most of them do now anyway.

I don’t object to being rid of federal agencies; but I leave it to the People to do so. Meanwhile, I check their actions by the agent of the Attorney General, now third in line for the Presidency, and by a 3/5 vote among the Governors, who replace the role played by the Senate in many cases.–DLD

Too much power to the states thereby rendering the federal government useless. Moreover, I see a dangerous pattern emerging that places power in the hands of appointed and unelected bureaucrats (attorney general) instead of Congress.

No declaration of war, nor any peacetime initiation of military force outside the borders of the United States and its territories, shall be undertaken without the consent of two-thirds of the Governors of the States and a unanimous vote of assent between the President and the Defense Cabinet, whose membership shall include the Attorney General, the Secretaries of State, Defense, Homeland Security and Treasury, the Chairperson of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the heads of the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Defense Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency; the number and composition of which may be altered by a three-fourths majority vote among the Governors of the States, but shall not exclude the Attorney General. – DLD

Kind of wordy for a constitution, and it definitely places far more power in the hands of the states than I envision, moreover it makes it nearly impossible to wage war (governors voting) and it would take too long in a fluid situation that requires an immediate response. My plan only requires a supermajority vote by congress.

But I guess the founding fathers would like your placing more power in the hands of the states which was the original intent of the COnstitution – at least based on my limited study of the document.

I bestow this function upon the Commerce Secretary, subject to the same checks as above. And under my system he and all pols may be voted from office every summer–except the President, who may be replaced after two years. --DLD

As I stated previously, I dont like power in the hands of unelected bureaucrats.

Thanks for the response. It is positive that objective contributors like you and Merlin are finally on board to present fresh ideas and arguments even if you don’t agree with most of mine. Moreover, I think it is beneficial that substantive grass roots economic plans be submitted and deconstructed. It is possible that change will come from the masses and unlike the Occupy drones, if this change is based on a logical and sound schematic then it might gain a foothold in the political process.

Arguing with the faith-based rabble on Leftist and anarchist websites while entertaining is tedious at times.

I surely agree that the military under any Republican arrangement is mach inferior, in organizational terms, to what it could be due to civilian fears of takeover, but also because Republics can’t see their own self-interest even if it was spitting in their face (you may have noticed that I’m not a fan of the US Constitution, or any other Republican arrangement).

Now, If what you mean when you write that…

Then you disagree with my argument that a geopolitik of liberal democracy will be violent ?

…is that, without nuclear deterrence liberal democracies would fight wars among themselves and with other powers, I certainly think so. Countries on that list have done such unspeakable horrors as to have deserved an invasion many times over, hadn’t it been for Uncle Sam’s nuclear umbrella. Just to name one example, Cyprus ethnically cleansed it Turkish minority before Turkey invaded its northern portion to put an end to this (ethnically cleansing Greeks in the north in the process). Classy!

We could discuss why I do not think that Republic, with the exception of smallish ones, would survive in a minarchic world of competing states ( I think we’re already witnessing the dissolution of liberal democracy), but that is indeed for an other thread. What is important is that due to nukes, the gradual decentralization of the world due to the impossibility of conventional war is bringing us closer to the minarchic idea and, perhaps, to a panarchic one in its time.

Every time you post in any thread in this forum, you “feed” the “trolls”. You should know by now that your refusal to reply directly to me, or even to refer to me by name at all, hasn’t deterred me in the slightest.

If you’re going to cite something like the Rahn curve, at least get it right - it predicts optimal economic growth when government spending is between 15% and 25% of GDP, not between 10% and 15% (source). “Based loosely,” indeed! Until you explain the methodology by which you were led to a lower figure than Rahn, I’ll assume your lowering of the figure is completely arbitrary.

See above. Otherwise, when do you think Congress would “need” to “adjust” this percentage?

If the states would be paying an equal amount based on GDP, then total federal + state government spending would amount to about 20% of GDP, not 10% as you advocate.

Except when it comes to the almighty “national defense” - then apparently you know better than they do.

How are you defining “power”? How are you defining “aggressively”? (I suspect, in the latter case, you’re defining it as “vigorously” - why not use that word instead?)

But based on my tentative understanding of this thesis, it seems that you oppose what every free-market economist has said since Adam Smith.

So how do you think the representative government of the US is doing there? Last time I checked, it appeared to be completely driven by political machinations. If you think the US’s representative government is flawed here, can you please explain how?

Except when they do things that you don’t like, such as oppose wars you want to get involved in, or fund the military less than you want to (if they want to fund it at all). At those times, you apparently think you know better than they do.

Those two sentences directly contradict each other. “Emergencies dealing with national defense” constitute “man-made societal problems”, do they not? If you agree that they do - and I really don’t see how you wouldn’t - then logically you must also believe that the best means to deal with emergencies dealing with national defense is a strong, fluid, and nimble private economy - not a strong, fluid, and nimble government. So make up your mind.

Again, this embodies a contradiction. A standing military force would necessarily contain some level of bureaucracy for its management. Indeed, I think the argument can be made that any soldier who’s currently not in a combat situation is instead a bureaucrat. Rendering such bureaucrats immune from criminal prosecution, taken literally, would allow them to get away with no less than murder. If you’re honestly in favor of such a thing, then I see no reason to engage you any further, except to remind others of this - res ipsa loquitur.

Right, in the absence of logical arguments and counter-arguments, what do we have left? Just a shouting match. Who “wins” in a shouting match? Whoever’s voice is the loudest. Sorry, but I won’t play that game.

You have more faith than I will ever have. And it is blind.

You sure use a lot fo words to avoid answering a simple question. When was the last time you’ve seen someone benefiting from this “plunder of war”? Show me the money (profits)!

Those parasites only have said power because of scared automatons like yourself who keep perpetuating the chant that submitting to them is necessary for their own protection. “We” must keep supporting parasitic plunderers lest parasitic plunderers do us harm! Don’t you see how you twist yourself into a pretzel with your logic?

Hey Einstein, the first step towards freeing yourself from parasitic plunderers must happen in your head – the second, in your ballsack. How do you expect to ever wake up free from parasitic plunderers when you precondition your very fearful existence with submission of your body and property to them? Parasitic plunderers: one must live with them so one could live without them, right?

Centinel

The 10% number is based loosely on the Rahn Curve that shows maximum societal economic growth when government spending hovers around 10-15%. Moreover, defense spending is more than adequate at 5% – indeed the extra 5% would be insurance and pay for law enforcement, statistical analysis and data collection, judiciary, congress, et al

I can see that we part ways in terms of where pragmatism must give way to principle. I don’t care about maximizing societal growth per se; in fact, I believe that what is crucial for our future as a nation–and as a planet-- is not more economic growth, but more moral growth; and as I stated previously, I believe this comes through hands-on trial and error, facing consequences for decisions made, not through accepting a predetermined percentage of taxation, Rahn Curve or not.

However a more competitive standard would be to charge each state based on population so as to encourage state fiscal and monetary policies to be economically effective or face temporary Federal takeover – hence bankruptcy and ‘restructuring’ proceedings

I suppose this is as good a time as any to make clear that I have no interest in accelerating the economic development, let alone the population growth, of the several States, or of the states of the world. I don’t dream of turning a quick profit on all of Earth’s assets, even if they went to the most efficient producer. I like the global state stalemate that keeps much of the planet underdeveloped; and I like the fact that we have States here that are broadly natural in landscape, bejeweled with national forests and national parks.

My system is such that if more government is required, more government is paid for. And to those who make more government necessary these costs accrue directly. Government thereby becomes a tool for teaching self-reliance, with those who require shouldering its costs.

I agree that the People most definitely know what is best for themselves – indeed this self-interest is what drives crony capitalism.

Don’t knock self-interest; the alternative is servitude.

Indeed, power goes to those in society who most aggressively pursue their own self-interests – not those whose self-interests most benefit society.

I like the line; but unfettered free markets would be less interested in what benefits society than most state systems are. It isn’t their job to look out for the general good, unless it directly affects the bottom line–and even then they make careful cost/benefit analyses. Again, my ideal planet does not resemble the DeathStar. To me, the most efficient free market is not the ultimate goal. Personal accountability must be taught to the greatest number, or any system will falter. And direct democracy is uniquely capable of localizing accountability, while maintaining civil rights protections, and state military and law enforcement protections.

Hence, a representative government is needed to check self-interest driven by political machinations.

Really? Since when has representative government CHECKED “self-interest driven by political machinations?” It seems to me that that is exactly what it was designed to foster. For how much more difficult would it be for a special interest to bribe or otherwise convince the entire voting population that it warrants special considerations–that the voters themselves do not–as opposed to bribing or otherwise convincing a handful of representatives on the golf course, or behind closed doors?

Under a pure democracy I believe that 50.1% will vote to plunder the 49.9%.

Mine is no pure democracy. And I’ve already laid out the relevant amendment and argument. We have a representative government now that is allowing the non-productive to plunder the successful.

in order for a military force to be an effective deterrent, it must be funded in peacetime. Hence, where and how does the money come from to maintain a strong military ?

IN sum, I dont see where your source for funding government comes from in your scenario.

In the Tenth Amendment posted above, I’ve enumerated the sources of revenue for government and stipulated that the collections must reflect actual costs. Here’s a few examples:

Usage fees levied upon persons whose activities degrade or monopolize public property; (This permits the government to collect revenues to compensate for the degradation and maintenance of public roads, bridges, buildings, etc.; as well as charging individuals for such things as grazing on public land, parking meters, hot dog stands, etc.)

Usage fees levied upon persons enjoying exclusive use of land, in proportion to its acreage and the volume, mass and scarcity of natural resources therein; (This permits the government to collect revenues in direct proportion to the benefit that individuals derive from the military/law enforcement protection of their private property, peacetime or otherwise. Notice that there is no upper limit on what the government may charge, only a requirement that it actually reflects what they in fact used. Incidentally, it also discourages the acquisition of more private land than one could possibly need; which, as I previously stated, I find of significant planetary benefit.)

Usage fees levied upon foreign governments for involvement of United States military personnel, equipment or weaponry in operations outside the territory of the United States, at the request of said governments, which would otherwise be the responsibility of any sovereign nation to itself; (Obviously this provision enables the military to recover its costs for all overseas military bases from the countries within which they are situated, peacetime or otherwise. And it covers operations in which the U.S. shoulders the burden for nations that piggyback off of our role as the world’s police force.)

I also made some significant legal/justice reforms, including this revenue source:

All convicted prisoners shall labor no less than eight hours per day, five days per week, unless two physicians certify that they are physically or mentally incapable of as much; and only in so laboring shall able prisoners earn the privileges of hot meals, visitations, educational and recreational opportunities and personal, non-toiletry possessions within cells.

By this provision, prisoners will pay for their own incarceration–and accustom themselves to the life of a responsible adult, rather than colluding to commit offenses behind bars–when they aren’t watching cable TV, or playing basketball. Hopefully, such a provision will act as a greater deterrent to crime than conditions today. But I believe in the moral soundness of it, irrespective of results.

I believe that the best means to deal with any societal problems either man-made or natural is a strong, fluid, and nimble private economy – not a strong, fluid and nimble government.

Generally, I agree. And I think we’re largely on the same page with respect to the need for a state military and law enforcement. But I don’t want every road to be a private toll road; or every park to be a day-fee park. I want an option and a requirement for public education, when private individuals, particularly in poor neighborhoods, either cannot afford private schools, or are too irresponsible to save for them. I don’t mind public bus transportation, if the only other option is a private taxi cab. And I value the protection of national lands, and lands of public domain.

But it goes without saying that many of these departments are bloated and wasteful; which is why I provided several different means by which to block their policies:

– The exercise of oversight, investigative and regulatory powers formerly delegated to the United States Congress by the original Constitution, where not previously delegated by the former, shall be delegated by the Attorney General to, and in turn by, the appropriate executive appointees, whose official acts may be halted by the President, the Attorney General, or by a three-fifths majority of the Governors, when deemed unlawful, wasteful or predominately political in nature.

I like this, however if you want a nimble and fluid government – then subjecting bureaucrats to criminal prosecution is counter productive to your goals. Nonetheless, if government mistakes can be punished, then this rule alone would be enough destroy government completely. In the very least, it would make bureaucrats far more cautious and hesitant than ever before thereby rendering them useless and simply cashing paychecks for doing nothing but shuffling paper – which is what most of them do now anyway.

Rules with impartial teeth are what’s missing from our crumbling society: In other words, personal accountability for all. If this provision slows the tendency of regulators to impose unnecessary rules upon business; or forces business to be especially cautious in defense of public safety, I will live with the resulting stalemate. I believe that it will greatly shrink government regulation; and greatly improve business ethics, e.g. drug recalls, environmental pollution, deficient manufacturers’ safety standards, etc.; but that it will not destroy the necessary functions of government.

Too much power to the states thereby rendering the federal government useless. Moreover, I see a dangerous pattern emerging that places power in the hands of appointed and unelected bureaucrats (attorney general) instead of Congress.

The States represent their respective populations more directly than the federal goverment does, whether through their senators and representatives, or through their governors. Either way they must be represented. My system allows even appointed bureaucrats, the members of the Administration, in addition to being subject to the checks listed just previously, to be voted out of office:

Every public official within the United States but the President, either elected or appointed by an elected officer, may be replaced in a summer electoral initiative when, among an option of any precinct-certified candidates who meet all other qualifications for the office of an incumbent, an option to require the immediate replacement of an appointee by the appointer, where applicable, and an option to retain the status quo, one of the two former options receives an aggregate of fifty-one percent of votes cast for said office, among at least ninety-five percent of precincts subject to its oversight and authority. Nor shall the aforementioned appointer during the existing term remove the duly-elected replacement-appointee from office, unless for misconduct therein; though all public officials may be replaced in any electoral initiative when a vacating of their offices for any other reason shall have necessitated a special election.

Kind of wordy for a constitution, and it definitely places far more power in the hands of the states than I envision, moreover it makes it nearly impossible to wage war (governors voting) and it would take too long in a fluid situation that requires an immediate response. My plan only requires a supermajority vote by congress

In some cases the founding document was not “wordy” enough; hence the mess we have now. It also makes it necessary that the President convince a large majority of the Governors that the case for war is compelling enought to send their respective state populations to face death overseas. But the time it would take, in this age of smartphones and internet, to gather the necessary votes from the 50 Governors, as opposed to the 535 members of Congress, would probably be less time.

I dont like power in the hands of unelected bureaucrats

It’s already there: Congress has long since transferred their enumerated powers to agencies run by unelected bureaucrats, like the FDA, EPA, IRS, etc.; I just place redundant checks upon it this system, including a new one, directly in the hands of the people, instead of just relying on the courts as a last resort. And don’t forget that the powers that they possess are still limited by a Constitution–only now the buck stops with a single, accountable individual:

The Secretary of Homeland Security shall have the power to monitor and to regulate entry into and exit from the United States; to establish a uniform rule of naturalization and deportation; and to make rules for domestic capture of foreign enemies.

The Secretary of State shall have the power to define and process piracies, felonies and other non-military transgressions committed by United States citizens on the High Seas, or in any other international space, and offenses against the law of Nations.

The Secretary of Defense shall have the power to provision and maintain the armed forces; to maintain rules for the government and regulation of the armed forces; and to make rules for the capture of foreign enemies abroad.

Sorry about hijacking your compliment to Merlin; but I still think your posts are refreshingly-rooted in common sense. And I don’t expect you or anyone else to adopt my way of improving the nation. I just felt obliged to put my own ideas on record.

The following is an amusing example of why I don’t generally respond to the bevy of trolls that follow me around this forum:

This troll’s own statements will expose himself starting with this one at the beginning of his/her post:

If you’re going to cite something like the Rahn curve, at least get it right - it predicts optimal economic growth when government spending is between 15% and 25% of GDP, not between 10% and 15% (source). “Based loosely,” indeed! Until you explain the methodology by which you were led to a lower figure than Rahn, I’ll assume your lowering of the figure is completely arbitrary. – autolykos

Yet, amusingly this troll answers his/her own challenge in the same post with the following argument:

If the states would be paying an equal amount based on GDP, then total federal + state government spending would amount to about 20% of GDP, not 10% as you advocate. – autolykos

The balance of the post appears to be the typical semantic lessons, hyper-illogical diversionary dissections, and ad hominems.

For example, this troll’s last bizarre statement:

Right, in the absence of logical arguments and counter-arguments, what do we have left? Just a shouting match. Who “wins” in a shouting match? Whoever’s voice is the loudest. Sorry, but I won’t play that game. --autolykos

In sum, I can only hope that this troll will follow his/her own advice, but I’m not holding my breath.

I surely agree that the military under any Republican arrangement is mach inferior, in organizational terms, to what it could be due to civilian fears of takeover, but also because Republics can’t see their own self-interest even if it was spitting in their face (you may have noticed that I’m not a fan of the US Constitution, or any other Republican arrangement). – Merlin

I agree 100%.

However the purpose of a Constitutional Federal Republic is precisely to be inefficient. This type of political arrangement is a prison to potential statists. It intentionally decentralizes, balances, limits and makes transparent armed force in society. This inefficiency is the beauty and benefit of COnstitutional Federal Republicanism.

To use an analogy, republicanism is like a vaccine against absolutism. Indeed, it is an injection of the disease, albeit a benign version, that protects against the full blown manifestation of the actual disease (absolutism) and the ‘vaccine’ enables the citizenry to identify and monitor slight statist schemes. Of course, like any vaccination, we need a new and improved injection that protects against this newly mutated version of economic coercion – hence an Economic Bill of Rights.

In contrast, private political arrangements are not restricted in any way. Private military agencies or corporations (PMA, PMC) within a given geographic region can centralize and expand in complete privacy. Hence, ancap systems (if they ever existed for any extended period) quickly coalesce into territorial monopolies of armed force. At this point, the allure of absolute power becomes irresistable – unless you discount the adage that ‘power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely’

…is that, without nuclear deterrence liberal democracies would fight wars among themselves and with other powers, I certainly think so. Countries on that list have done such unspeakable horrors as to have deserved an invasion many times over, hadn’t it been for Uncle Sam’s nuclear umbrella. Just to name one example, Cyprus ethnically cleansed it Turkish minority before Turkey invaded its northern portion to put an end to this (ethnically cleansing Greeks in the north in the process). Classy! – Merlin

Yep I should have used “without” instead of “with” — sorry I dont have time to even proofread these.

However, your statement seems to confirm my view that liberal democracy breeds peaceful, prosperous, free, and stable societies. Prior to the introduction of American hegemony, Europe was always at war. Yet, today it is utterly peaceful and stable.

Why? Liberal democracy is the formula for this success. Indeed, American hegemony is a contributing factor and must be maintained as long as statist threats on Europe’s periphery are present, but with the inevitable democratization of these threats (1 democracy in 1776 to over 100 today) I believe that you are correct that society will likely evolve into a series of increasingly smaller minarhic states since the threat of armed force is less likely among like-minded states.

I don’t think that nuclear weaponry is the answer, in fact gunpower was of sufficient lethality to kill tens of millions, yet this technological development did not deter conflict or protect smallish states. If your putting all of your chips on a single weapon system considering the incredible march of technological advancement — it is a dangerous and reckless bet.

The deterrent effect of nuclear weaponry will be rendered relatively obsolete within our lifetime by faith-based non-state actors, fissile detection devices, industry/international monitoring of mining and refining operations, strategic defense systems, anti-missile technologies, satellite imaging technologies, cyber attack/security, et al.

Indeed, all bets are off on the utility of nuclear weaponry as preventing war when Iran gets the bomb since this will open pandora’s box and lead to the proliferation of nuke weaponry to saudi arabia, iraq, egypt, turkey, and later to a non-state faith-based proxy like hezbollah.

IN addition, many who applaud the decline of US hegemony will likely lament this change if it occurs since it will without doubt lead to nuclear proliferation among longstanding ethnic and national adversaries in Asia that will likely lead to nuclear exchange and enormous political, economic, and civil catastrophy in places like japan, south korea, singapore, taiwan, thailand, burma,malaysia, vietnam, philippines, indonesia, et al. All of these nations are capable of producing a nuclear weapon in short order, yet thanks to the benevolent umbrella of American hegemony are not incentivised to do so.

An isolationist America would be protected from military threats for a time due to our vast and effective offensive and defensive nuclear weapon capability – but the rest of the world would be a hellish and/or despotic place.

IN sum, in my opinion, it is not a weapon system that will promote a lasting peace, prosperity, freedom and stability – it will be the expansion of liberal democracies that thus far as been an utterly peaceful system among like-minded states.

You sure use a lot fo words to avoid answering a simple question. When was the last time you’ve seen someone benefiting from this “plunder of war”? Show me the money (profits)! – z1235

Okay, how about virtually every nation-state on the planet!

Indeed, every single sovereign nation has gained independence by coercive means.

The USA plundered native american lands to incredible profits – last I checked it was approximately $14 trillion last year.

More recently, the LIbyan insurgency gained their freedom from a brutal dictator – arguably you can’t quantify this benefit in economic terms, but freedom from a brutal dictator benefits someone – perhaps another dictator who gains power and privledge – but hopefully a more tolerant state that eventually leads to more representative rule and freer markets in the coming decades.

Seriously, myriad rational actors have perceived that they will benefit in some manner from using armed force, hence conflict has been so prevalent throughout history – coercion is particulary effective at plundering ancap wealth and freedoms

Those parasites only have said power because of scared automatons like yourself who keep perpetuating the chant that submitting to them is necessary for their own protection. “We” must keep supporting parasitic plunderers lest parasitic plunderers do us harm! Don’t you see how you twist yourself into a pretzel with your logic? – z1235

This is amusing since the same parasites that exploit me are exploiting you by economic plunder obtained by coercive means – yet paradoxically you claim that coercion is not beneficial ?!!

It is certainly beneficial to the statists now in power, indeed at your expense. Essentially, you are engage in an illogical argument that coercion to obtain power and privledge is not effective when in fact it is used successfully to enslave you!!!

I do agree that statist frequently and effectively manufacturing external boogeymen to justify and expand their hold on power. However, what ancaps do not understand is that statist threats DO indeed exist outside our borders. The difference is that these statists are not just interested in economic plunder – they have no reservation against killing you to gain power.

Open a history book – statism is not the exclusive domain of the US government. INdeed, the only beneficial job that our government performs is when we use internal statists to fight external statists — it is a typical win-win situation that keeps us free and relatively prosperous while our government is used for one of its only intended purposes.

“Hey Einstein” – z1235

Are the ad hominems necessary ? Try not to take my arguments against your ideological views personally.

the first step towards freeing yourself from parasitic plunderers must happen in your head – the second, in your ballsack. How do you expect to ever wake up free from parasitic plunderers when you precondition your very fearful existence with submission of your body and property to them? Parasitic plunderers: one must live with them so one could live without them, right? – z1235

Note this lesson on Geopolitics 101.

  1. statist cannot obtain power and privledge by legitimate means.

  2. statist systems undermine economic, political and civil freedoms and efficiency

  3. yet statists are currently in power…how?

  4. Statists are very effective at utilizing coercive means to obtain desired ends

  5. in contrast, ancaps have never been in power

  6. ancap economic philosophy, omitting pacifism, is an effective economic and civil system.

  7. yet ancaps are not currently in power… why ?

  8. ancaps don’t have the will or means to gain power by coercive means.

hence, power goes to those in society who most aggressively pursue their own self-interests , not to those whose self-interests most benefit society.

In sum, the last thing society needs is a lecture from ancaps on how to gain power from statist overlords.

Ancap society is on the bottom of the ashbin of history and they have absolutely no pedigree on how to do anything other than to bow to the very statists that you claim are ineffective and illegitimate yet who have subjegated you at their leisure throughout history.

@DarylLloydDavis,

I am interested in reading and responding to your post.

I will do so while watching the game this afternoon, unfortunately I am short on the beer, chips and dip.

By ascribing my name to the parts of my post that you quoted, you betray your intention of refusing to refer to me by name (as evidenced in the third-person verb forms and such phrases as “this troll”, “himself”, and “his/her” [why the inconsistency between pronouns?]).

You claim that I answer my own “challenge” in the same post. First off, I don’t see where I made any “challenge”. Second, it was not clear at all to me that you were basing both the 10% of GDP in federal funding and the 10% of GDP in state funding on the Rahn curve. You only stated that the former figure was “loosely” based on it. If you think that not fully specifying your position/arguments at first, and only doing so after people start to attack it, is a sign of intellectual prowess and integrity, guess again. It’s a sign of intellectual dishonesty and cowardice.

However, I also think maybe you either don’t completely understand what I wrote, or you’re deliberately distorting it. You originally wrote the following: “The 10% number is based loosely on the Rahn Curve that shows maximum societal economic growth when government spending hovers around 10-15%.” That is, you claimed that the Rahn curve points to 10-15% of GDP as the optimal amount of government spending. The source I cited shows that this claim is inaccurate: the optimal figure claimed by Rahn is 15-25% of GDP. Now you’re implicitly claiming that the 10% of GDP for federal spending and the 10% of GDP for equivalent state spending that you advocate does fall in the 15-25% of GDP claimed by Rahn as optimal for government spending. If you’re secretly using the actual figures from Rahn to refute my counter-argument, when you originally claimed inaccurate figures for it, then I think you’re being doubly dishonest and cowardly.

Then you’ll have no problem pointing out exactly where such exist in my post - rather than making a bare blanket assertion and (presumably) expecting everyone else to just take your word for it. Or are you going to be a coward here too?

And just what makes that statement “bizarre” to you? Surely you can provide an answer to that.


With all that said, I thought you said you don’t “feed” the “trolls”? Yet you keep on posting. This time you even bothered to respond to me directly! That hasn’t happened in quite some time. I’m glad that I finally inspired you to do so once again.