Yes, all ownership is inherently private as a consequense of all action being inherently individualist. But the categories of “private” and “public” ownership in the economic sense are still distinct from one another as the former requires an individual’s explicit investment in the property wheras the latter does not.
It’s news to me that Sumer is considered tribalist.
What I meant is that all ownership is inherently exclusive to one or more individuals. Even “public ownership” is exclusive to the citizenry of a state or other polity (at least in theory). But you bring up another useful distinction between “public” and “private” ownership. I don’t think this is the route you wanted to go down, but it seems to me that the sense of “public ownership” you give above also constitutes a form of fraud.
I was actually responding to this:
Sumer is the first attested civilization. If even Sumerians were acquainted with wage labor, I’d say it preceded the development of written language. Whether Sumer is considered tribalist seems to be irrelevant here. As an aside, I’d argue that the Sumerian city-states actually were (largely) tribal in character, just as the much more recent Greek poleis were.
There’s so much wrong here I don’t know where to start.
To the guy who’s a real life version of Dale Gribble, you should probably read about actual tribes and “hunter-gatherers” and not from an elementary school text book. Civilization is collectivist? Probably, and if that’s the case so is culture and religion, and a sense of national identity, but does that mean it’s negative? No. Without civilization or a heirarchical structure you probably wouldn’t be sitting at a computer right now.
As far as I know about the Germanic tribes of NW Europe from around 100 B.C. to 1,000 C.E., they were tribes, yes, and they had social structures and forms of law and government with chieftains and kings. Maybe you should read this.
Germanic tribes had law codes. So what? I don’t need civ to survive. Learn the proper survivalist skills and you can too.
Then what the hell are you still doing here?
Uh, I rather live with “civilization” instead of like a bunch of nighgaunts wandering in the woods without purpose except to “survive” in the wilderness without looking for material advancement. I can understand a few people living without “civilization”, but how would you explain civilization itself living without civilization in the wilderness? Imagine it, a million people “surviving” in the wilderness…you’d think at one point in time they’d form community…
Uh, I rather live with “civilization” instead of like a bunch of nighgaunts wandering in the woods without purpose except to “survive” in the wilderness without looking for material advancement. I can understand a few people living without “civilization”, but how would you explain civilization itself living without civilization in the wilderness? Imagine it, a million people “surviving” in the wilderness…you’d think at one point in time they’d form community…
I don’t care what happens to others. I’m not enslaved by the community when I’m in the woods gathering food and living off the land.
I agree there is exclusivity in all forms of ownership. The economic distinction I was trying to make between private and public ownership is that private ownership is decentralized and voluntary while public ownership is centralized and may or may not be voluntary.
I was making a statement about societies that are not considered civilizations. IIRC Sumer had centralized irrigation and ended up forming into centralized and walled cities. They were agrarian rather than hunter/gatherer. I’ll admit I’m in over my head here though, I haven’t studied ancient societies outside of highschool.
Capital innovation is what brings about civilization. Civilization is simply an aggregation of capital and economic activity. That is why I am saying it is strange to call an economy capitalist when it isn’t a civilization. I suppose this might be because I’m contextualizing “civilization” differently than those arguing that it is oppressive.
But you are when you come back to “civ” to litter our forums with anti-“civ” propaganda, right? So again, why are you here?
How am I supposed to live outside of civ if I lack the necessary skills? The only reason I haven’t left is b/c I want to learn survivalist methods before I go.
Learn survivalist skills in civilization to learn how to not live with civilization.
Use capitalist methods to acquire supplies and means to protest capitalist methods.
Use internet to tell others you won’t use internet.
We have found logic.
I think we’ve found the irony, but that still doesn’t explain why the hell you’re here constantly posting videos trying to propagandize people to move to some other state. What the hell does that have to do with learning these “skills” from a civilization you don’t need to survive so that you might be able to survive without the civilization you don’t need to survive?
You need to do some research on civ and ag and understand why neither are sustainable.
Haha, good one. Why should we move to the woods when we have better life here in Civ?
You need to quit dancing around and answer the simple question that is asked of you. Why are you still here? This is not a survivalist website. You’re not going to learn any survivalist skills (which you apparently need, because you think you’re going to live in the woods by yourself, and yet don’t know how, which according to you is the reason you’re still on the Internet bothering all of us, and not in the woods already.)
You’re not even asking anyone to teach you anything. The only thing you’ve done here is create a bunch of single threads featuring nothing but a bunch of lame FSP propaganda. What the hell does all this talk about median income in the state of New Hampshire have to do with learning survivalist skills?
Why are you even here?
Right, I understand. I was agreeing with you that it’s a useful distinction to make.
Agrarian societies emerged/developed from hunter-gatherer societies, didn’t they? For some odd reason, many/most historians consider written language to be the distinctive feature of “civilization”. But I see no reason why division of labor and the payment of wages for work depend on written language.
There’s a theory that the Ancient Greek poleis developed as a result of blood feuds between various genea (singular genos) during the Greek Dark Age. In this theory, the fact that (nearly) every polis centered on a high point - the akropolis - is indicative of it originally having been treated as a place of common refuge and defense. Although I’m not as familiar with Sumer, I see no reason why the same sort of thing couldn’t have led to the development of the Sumerian city-states.
Would you say that agriculture is a capital innovation? It led to a higher and more stable food supply, didn’t it? That is, didn’t it lead to higher food productivity? And isn’t higher productivity the point of capital innovation?
What’s your point in living? Why lead your life separate from everyone else? What would be the purpose in that life? Will you simply sleep, eat, poop, and marvel at the autumn foliage?
Now, you are deliberately being obtuse.
Yes, I did. We are dependent on the slave labor that brings us oil.
Thank you. At least one person gets it.
I think the people in third world countires would tend to go back to a simpler life if the affluent statists left them alone. That is just my guess. Like you said, nobody knows.
I could be wrong. I hope I am wrong. I hope they would take over the industries and keep shipping junk over to us. However, my honest opinion is that I doubt that will happen – hence, that is partly why I am a primitivist. Nevertheless, I still think that too much of our modern technology enables the heinous aspects of human behavior which is beyond th scope of this discussion.
Bingo. He wants to destroy civilization / complex orginization/ the division of labor with…capitalism? Libertarians really need to back off the whole survivalist stuff, it’s a red herring.
And, among other things, I can’t even wrap my pretty little head around the whole “doing it alone”, Subjective value theory, and buying gold.
How am I supposed to live outside of civ if I lack the necessary skills? The only reason I haven’t left is b/c I want to learn survivalist methods before I go.
You have either been brainwashed an a casuality of ideological warfare, or it is possible you have some personal problems and are projecting them on to something else…or a combination of boh. A public forum is no way to address these issues, and it may be a bt embarrising to you for me to say that - but still get out of this whole survivalist, apocolyptic mode…in fact I want to suggest to get away from all political/ cultural thinking. There is a good chance It will do you a lot of harm.
There is nothing wrong with moving out to the country, being a farmer, and enjoying the open air - in fact that sounds like a pretty good life…however don’t let this doom and gloom, or ideological warfare take you over - it will kill you.
Okay we’ve established that you think oil would be a lot more expensive if not for “slave labor”. Got it. Here is what you said: “I believe the state leads us to live with a dependence upon technology that would not otherwise be affordable without the state.”
Please name this technology you speak of. (Unless you’re actually saying it’s “slave labor”, in which case, you could confirm this.) Perhaps you should also define “dependent” while you’re at it.