What is "private property"?

[Juan]

@Jonatan k

If I think goverment better than anarchy, then I value goverment more then anarchy.

Fine, and your neighbor, who doesn’t value government at all, will be killed by (your) government if he refuses to pay taxes.

Also, I fail to see the connection between the history of a primitive and slave holding society (‘sons of israel’) with the libertarian theory of government and property ?

[Jonatan_K]

@corpus delicti

Rights theories are not my strongest subject. However, I’ll give it a go.

Why would you not separate ownership and usage? It is a sincere question (In any case, if you are of the view they cannot be separated, I can see why you wonder how to fit in wardship)

Nevertheless, I’m having trouble understanding how A and B support your view.

In regards to A it seems it does all but endorse vigilantism; if ownership and usage are the same I never have to establish my claim of ownership of the property that was stolen, I can merely steal it back, i.e. become a vigilante. If, however, ownership and usage are separated I cannot just steal it back, because I would have trouble getting public support for this unless I could prove my claim of prior ownership.

In regards to B it seems you misunderstand the “Ragnar Danneskjold” or Walter Block argument. Pit has not only stolen Joe’s good, Pit has also “stolen” Bob’s money, because he has frauded* Bob into believing he has traded ownership of money for ownership of the good. As I recall Block’s argument Bob has actually committed fraud against Jedidyah who has committed fraud against Habib etc. This does not entail that Pit should only amend damages to Joe. In fact you have a claim against Vladimir, who has a claim against Habib, who has a claim against Jediyah, who has a claim against Bob, who has a claim against Pit. The idea is to trace original ownership and have the original perpetrator pay for restitution along the “chain”.

• Is that even a word? You get the idea, I hope.

I’ll go with your analysis of A, becuase I tried to get this separation up to concept of “Blind Trust”.

B - Well,

@Jon Irenicus

Indeed. How do you decide who’s right, Ragnar Danneskjold or me?

Why would I be “deciding” anything here? That’s up to the courts involved. If the claim is too far removed from the original owner, then ownership does not revert to them. If they’re alive and identifiable their property is theirs, and that is the end of it.

As “too far” is also normative (sorry, I’m oversensitive today), in my model it simplified to one level - the thief and the victim. Theft, in this system can be considered as transferral of ownership (actually, pretty close to homesteading). Now, lrt’s say you started the process of homesteading, but in the middle discovered that the object of homestading already belongs to someone.The owner sues you. Well, if you can prove yp\ou didn’t know about the object been owned, you return it to the owner, and that’s it. But homesteading with knowledge - it is theft, and you will need to do the reparation.

BTW, many people remember the Bible saying “Eye for an Eye”, while the truth is : “If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.” (Exodus 22:1

[Jonatan_K]

@Juan

Also, I fail to see the connection between the history of a primitive and slave holding society (‘sons of israel’) with the libertarian theory of government and property ?

[

Try 98% lap that Dr. Block mentions in his “Introduction to Libertarianism I” in Audio Courses.

[Juan]

Why don’t you explain it yourself, instead of invoking Block ?

[Jonatan_K]

@Juan

Why don’t you explain it yourself, instead of invoking Block ?

Alright, the subject seens more compicated than I thought, os It’ll be a while till I make it into postable form. In the process I’ve worked out few previously mentioned:

@liberty student

Charity is the only method I am aware of.

Even charity falls under the same phenomena I mentioned. Let’s say someone donated an asset to the goverment ( common practice with charity funds). Can goverment hold it and enjoy revenues? If so on what conditions? Also goverment funded on charity can gain Budget Surplus. Can it be invested? on whatg terms?

In Non-profit organisation the owner of the assets is the organisetion and the executives having “ward” status, which gives the rights to sell, buy and make chages at the asset. Can hte same model be aplied uppon goverment?

@liberty student

Why do we have a state? I presume you feel it is necessary to have a state to… maintain the monopoly on justice, creation, enforcement and interpretation?

I thought about this “we”

“But if a man says We, further information is needed to denote who the Egos are who are
comprised in this We.” (Mises, “Human Action”)

Who are “we”?

[liberty_student]

@Jonatan K

I thought about this “we”

“But if a man says We, further information is needed to denote who the Egos are who are
comprised in this We.” (Mises, “Human Action”)

Who are “we”?

Wow, great word games. How about, “Do you feel there should be a state” and “if so, why?”

[Jonatan_K]

@liberty student

@Jonatan K

I thought about this “we”

“But if a man says We, further information is needed to denote who the Egos are who are
comprised in this We.” (Mises, “Human Action”)

Who are “we”?

Wow, great word games. How about, “Do you feel there should be a state” and “if so, why?”

Alright, here you go.

I’m Israeli. We are engaged in war that started some 20 years before Israel became a state. Therefore we need a centralised military autghority to make warfare. Even if some kind of peace were negotiated, you couldn’t run free economic relationship with palestinians due to exetreme Islamic fundamentalism of the later like muredering arabs trying to sell real estate Ergo, your govt-free model doesn’t aply to Israel.

[liberty_student]

Oh, so you’re totally irrational. OK.

[Jonatan_K]

@liberty student

Oh, so you’re totally irrational. OK.

Beg your pardon? Which part of “country in the midst of war cannot decentralize the chain of command, while unable to end war diplomaticly” fails your rationality?

[liberty_student]

@Jonatan K

Beg your pardon? Which part of “country in the midst of war cannot decentralize the chain of command, while unable to end war diplomaticly” fails your rationality?

As long as (1) property rights are not respected and (2) nation states on both sides fuel ethnic and religious hatred.

The state is not needed because of the war, the war is a direct product of the state.

You can rationalize it however you want, fanaticism, religious fundamentalism, clash of cultures, midst of war etc.

The reality is, if you take murder, theft, terrorism, kidnapping, rape, destruction, racism and condense them into one institution, the state is that institution.

If you want peace, eliminate the state. And that is the catch. I’ve listened to a lot of debate on this topic. Many people see peace and victory as being mutually exclusive.

[Jonatan_K]

Alright. in anarchy there will be no murder, theft, rape and kidnaping. That is rational? I give this forum more credit.

Now, what I do see here is blunt polylogismat (1). Individual people do not reapect property rights. Figuring out why the do so, we find ignorance, or some ideological instituon (Like radical Islam) that refute property right.

As for (2), Nation, State and Goverment somehow blend into one piece. You want to tell me that the root of american anti-semitism is American Goverment?

[Jon_Irenicus]

Here’s a question: does adamant refusal to believe that 2+2 = 4 “refute” it? Not really. Just because some Islamic savages live in the dark ages does not mean one must lower themselves to their base level. Are you one of those people that think you’re “entitled” to have the US government protect Israel?

[Jonatan_K]

No, but I don’t blame them for Islam either. Those “Some Islamic savages” prevent Israel implementing thins seen so logical in US or EU.

[Nitroadict]

@Jonatan K

Alright. in anarchy there will be no murder, theft, rape and kidnaping. That is rational? I give this forum more credit.

Your strawman is pissing in the wind. In reality, there will always be, at the very least, some probability of murder, theft, rape, & kidnapping. It is irrational, whether you are a statist or an anti-statist, to assume that those things will never occur as long as either there is or isn’t a state.

However, when one has a fallicious argument, I suppose you can consider it a rational (if not tactically sound) move to discredit one’s opponents before they do to your argument.

[liberty_student]

@Jonatan K

Alright. in anarchy there will be no murder, theft, rape and kidnaping. That is rational? I give this forum more credit.

Not on a mass scale. For that sort of evil, you need organization. Unless you believe man’s natural state is animal. And even then, animals usually show more dignity than some humans.

@Jonatan K

Now, what I do see here is blunt polylogismat (1). Individual people do not reapect property rights. Figuring out why the do so, we find ignorance, or some ideological instituon (Like radical Islam) that refute property right.

I don’t want to get into the religious or ethnic aspect of this. I think it is a cop-out to point fingers. No side is innocent in the origin, or continuation of this conflict.

@Jonatan K

As for (2), Nation, State and Goverment somehow blend into one piece. You want to tell me that the root of american anti-semitism is American Goverment?

I will tell you that the root of Nazi Anti-semitism was Nazi “democratically elected” government.

[Jonatan_K]

@liberty student

@Jonatan K

Alright. in anarchy there will be no murder, theft, rape and kidnaping. That is rational? I give this forum more credit.

Not on a mass scale. For that sort of evil, you need organization. Unless you believe man’s natural state is animal. And even then, animals usually show more dignity than some humans.

And that organisation is goverment?

@liberty student

II will tell you that the root of Nazi Anti-semitism was Nazi “democratically elected” government.

You avoid the subject, unless you consider US goverment to be Nazi “democratically elected” government. I asked about anti-semitism in US, that in some mysterious way connected according to you, to US goverment. Please explain.

[Nitroadict]

@Jonatan K

@liberty student

II will tell you that the root of Nazi Anti-semitism was Nazi “democratically elected” government.

You avoid the subject, unless you consider US goverment to be Nazi “democratically elected” government. I asked about anti-semitism in US, that in some mysterious way connected according to you, to US goverment. Please explain.

I believe LS is referring to the recent Swiss study on how normal voting behavior in a democratically elected government is what provided the National Socialist Party (a.k.a The Nazi Party) in Germany the edge in attaining political (& ultimately infamous & vile) power here:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/front/Vote_for_Hitler_normal_in_economic_context.html?siteSect=105&sid=9795885&cKey=1222879180000&ty=st

You can spin that all you want, but LS is correct.

[Jonatan_K]

@Nitroadict

You can spin that all you want, but LS is correct.

Let me tertrace the arguments a bit

@liberty student

The reality is, if you take murder, theft, terrorism, kidnapping, rape, destruction, racism and condense them into one institution, the state is that institution.

So I asked about american anti-semitism and how the state creates it. The answer:

@liberty student

@Jonatan K

As for (2), Nation, State and Goverment somehow blend into one piece. You want to tell me that the root of american anti-semitism is American Goverment?

I will tell you that the root of Nazi Anti-semitism was Nazi “democratically elected” government.

I just can’t see how what happened in 30ies in Gernamy connected to what’s going on nowadays in US (assumig that what happens today is connected to some previous events).

LS is right that today there is antisemitism in US beacuse the democracy?

[Juan]

LS is right that today there is antisemitism in US beacuse the democracy ?

What do you mean by “antisemitism in the US” ?

[Nitroadict]

@Jonatan K

@Nitroadict

You can spin that all you want, but LS is correct.

Let me tertrace the arguments a bit

@liberty student

The reality is, if you take murder, theft, terrorism, kidnapping, rape, destruction, racism and condense them into one institution, the state is that institution.

So I asked about american anti-semitism and how the state creates it. The answer:

@liberty student

@Jonatan K

As for (2), Nation, State and Goverment somehow blend into one piece. You want to tell me that the root of american anti-semitism is American Goverment?

I will tell you that the root of Nazi Anti-semitism was Nazi “democratically elected” government.

I just can’t see how what happened in 30ies in Gernamy connected to what’s going on nowadays in US (assumig that what happens today is connected to some previous events).

LS is right that today there is antisemitism in US beacuse the democracy?

Nice evade, I’m not going to repost my previous post. I said LS was correct regarding that the Nazi’s were democratically elected (& by normal voting behavior), that is all. I also said nothing regarding anti-semitism, so I’m sorry I couldn’t put an opinion down for your own manipulation.

Stop extending what I said to other arguments made by LS ( as well as putting words in my mouth) because it’s not going to work in strengthening your house of cards.