What Would I do Without Government As It Exists Now?

Miscellaneous General
1

I like Ron Paul. I voted for him in 2008 although I truly believed he could not win. It was more a statement than a winning vote I thought. Keep in mind through out I am asking, ‘what would I do’ not crying, “WHAT DO I DO?!?!”

I make $34,700(pre tax) a year. I can not imagine someone actually needing more money - no shit. Sometimes I get 1-5k more. So, that puts me possibly a bit under average Joe. I work 2080 hours - that is about how many are in the typical ‘average’ Joe work year. My wife I’ve been with her 12 yrs. Her father kept her in a closet for years while a friend raped he amongst other things. She is fucked up. I said it! But, she is(you just don’t say it). She receives $600 a month from the current government because she has not related well to other humans since her ‘problems’. Her prescriptions cost us about $300 a year where they would cost $2-3k a year without help - I believe? Her endless barrage of doctor and shrink visits cost a few hundred a year too. Again they would cost thousands without help(or without me buying insurance). My work insurance would not carry her. I live in a 600 sq foot home about $1.25 a foot. I’ve lived in a 2200 sq ft home… But who the hell needs that big a home - seriously! Today if I were to get her Anthem/Blue Cross one of the major insurance providers this would cost $350 - 400 a month with a 1k - 2k deductible and reasonable lifetime limitations. However, we would quickly eat through the mental health part. I guess it would cost me an additional $1-3k after we ate through their annual limitations. My additional personal expenses are just that “personal”. However, they are typical kid, car, food, discretionary, my meds, my occasional shrink visits(SHHHH) my insurance, taxes.

Ron Paul purposed a 10% flat tax for everyone. He suggested it was not a proposal but more a rhetorical statement, I believe - you heard it right? If not i will track down the clip for you. However, he said for that 10% expect no help from the government. I am not crying WHAT DO I DO? I am asking in this scenario that Ron purposed… What would I do? I would just roll over the “tax savings” into paying for her total annual “mental/physical health bills”? While 10% is an awesome rate the amount saved would not cover her. So, I just bite the bullet? 1/3 of Americans live on less than 15k. So, I guess I am still better off? Given my scenario would any potential help ever be available? Given what I am giving up, my situation paying 10% in taxes still seems high. Or am I just being greedy? :\

I do not like my government. Not republicans or democrats. I have always been emotionally supportive of Paul. However, I have never intellectually considered what would happen, I guess when we get him or someone similar elected. So, I am doing that now(the intel part). I am asking.

I do not know enough to know what to ask that would be relevant. Any thoughts or ideas is good. Even if it is as simple as “bite da bullet”

2

I may be taking the bait here (so be it), but I’ll start with your implicit assumption - what do you think entitles you to other people’s wealth?

3

Not sure if I get ypur drift, but… Stop trusting strangers. How can they know what you need if they don’t even know your name?

4

I took the time to best explain my situation. It was only 1-2 mintues. In the end your souution to me is bite the bullet - correct? That is reasonable.

5

In my mind this is the best site on the internet which deals with issues relevant to form of government(s) Paul has in mind. i believe he might actually have a chance now. My intention was not to waste 30 seconds of your time reading, sorry. Rather I was seeking opinions of strangers.

6

If this situation were to play out (and thats a huge if that I don’t believe will happen) it wouldn’t just be you pay less taxes, and price of everything stays the same. It would be in conjunction with a decrease in the size and scope of government which would mean a growth in the size and scope of the private sector. Medicine in a free market should look more like the tech field - getting faster stronger and cheaper.

Additionally, a 10% flat tax on everyone means no corporate taxes, no payroll taxes. The cost of running ALL business will decrease meaning that cost of living across the board will fall, putting more money in your pocket. You will still have to bite the bullet, the same way that I bite the bullet when I fill up my car or buy groceries. It will just be a more manageable bullet.

I like your optimism, but what is the actually likelihood that Paul is not only elected, but also able to rollback the size of leviathan? It will require actual change in the hearts and minds of people, not political actions. And every time people think they know the optimal size of government, someone will ask “Why not a little bit smaller?” The same reasons that a small state is more preferable to a large one is why no state is the most preferable scenario of all.

7

“I make $34,700(pre tax) a year. I can not imagine someone actually needing more money - no shit.”

Well, there is your problem. You say that you cannot imagine needing more money than that, yet you later say that you would need more money if you wanted to pay for your wife’s medical care. I don’t know entirely about your tax situation, but your federal income tax rate is 15% with the information you provided. I’m not going to assume any deductions. From your federal income tax alone you pay $5,205. If it were lowered to 10% you would pay $3,470. You would save $1,735 a year at that reduction.

You pay $2151.40 per year in social security tax (at 6.2% for regular employees).

As you can see, even though you only make $34,700 per year, you pay a lot of money to the government at the current tax rates, and I didn’t bother taking into account state income taxes or sales tax. Any drop in the tax rate would be incredibly beneficial to your situation. Though, I do think you should consider changing your attitude that you cannot imagine needing more than $34,700 per year, since that would greatly ease your wife’s medical situation.

8

“Ron Paul purposed a 10% flat tax for everyone.”

Where did he do this? Primary sources thanks.

What is your first language?

And I’m sorry to hear about your situation, I hope it improves.

No matter the case though - “your” government is bankrupt, those dollar bills your savings are in… are going to be worth next to nothing when the currency collapses. So… yeah, not just you who is going to be effected.

9

Thank you… I think it is a big IF too - optimism usually brings serious long term harm though Honestly, although I get a little sick thinking about it Obama will most likely get reelected if the rumor of raising 1 billion is true. However, when I am sad or happy I remind myself, “This too shall pass” - 2016 will come. After 4 more years of Obama the situations this forum presents / advocate will seem much more reasonable to most humans - like Obama’s BS seemed reasonable after Bush.

“Additionally, a 10% flat tax on everyone means no corporate taxes, no payroll taxes. The cost of running ALL business will decrease meaning that cost of living across the board will fall, putting more money in your pocket. You will still have to bite the bullet, the same way that I bite the bullet when I fill up my car or buy groceries. It will just be a more manageable bullet.”

(Quotes do not seem to be working ^^^^ quoted)

While I see that is common sense now…It simply is not a form of government I have lived under. So before people present these things to me. Sometimes until I hear them it does not “click” What would you classify the above as? Trickle down? Supply and demand(more money in the system because of less tax)? What would be a good key word for me to google to obtain more technical insight? Many democrats might argue the government would collapse with such a low tax rate. I know it worked for well over 100 years without modern taxation, right? Surly someone ‘on our side’ has presented a rebuttal?

I know my question was broad. So - thanks.

10

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?278970-Breaking-Ron-Paul-s-10-income-tax-Opt-Out-plan

I do not think it is just me being effected. I do not think it is just me being effected now either. He later clarified it was more a ‘rhetorical statement’ in some manner. But, he did not back down from it. I can find that interview as well.

I personally am not bankrupt and have no intention of becoming bankrupt because both major parties are fucked up :).

11

Have ready any books from rothbard? Maybe check out the cato institute. What do you do to earn 34K a year?

12

Google “transaction costs” and study how the government increases them.

13

If I am correct the underlying message was one can always do more to make more. I do not shoot darts or fax blast when considering/reconsidering careers. But, as realistic opportunities present themselves I apply for jobs in the 40-50k range. If I miss them, I keep notes improve and work for promotions.I have no issue covering my wife even if the costs seem excessive. However, this is not really the direction I intended to go with my question.

In order to install a form of government this forum as a whole seems to advocate, much of what we have allowed to be created must be torn down. Even small forms of governments are still complex ‘things’. My question was about how those changes would impact someone like myself - So some personal details were included. I have only lived under the current form of government and I am hardly alone. Therefore I am not so familiar whith ones which might better or necessary in the future. If I need to reconsider how I have been living or will lived I am not opposed to such a thing.

14

Sales one of the ‘big 3’ remainig newspaper corporations. Thus far, I have been an effective enough employee to not be one of the laid off. I see no reason that will change.

15

@OP: It is always the most difficult to approach questions of justice, law and polity that touch home on a personal level. The status quo isn’t going anywhere soon, at least, not without some sort of cataclysm like a global famine or global war, so you needn’t worry in the slightest about the money you receive from the government… Ron Paul or no Ron Paul. So, I recommend that you try not to analyze the rightness/wrongness of government from the starting point of your own personal benefits from the existence of government.

For example, I received government-subsidized student loans to get my degree. I think it is immoral for the government to make such loans available. Nevertheless, I can’t but acknowledge that I benefitted by them. The point being made by the other posters is that that benefit doesn’t come from the government itself, it comes from your fellow man. The government is just the middle-man taking it from your fellow man and giving it to you - taking their cut along the way.

Of course your wife has no right to the money of your friends and neighbors by virtue of the fact that she is ill. That should go without saying. She has the right to ask for it. You also have the right to ask for it (charity) but neither of you have the right to demand it. I expect that, in a more healthy* society, a lot more wealth would be available for charitable use. Without the government consuming trillions of dollars on satellite-guided unmanned aerial vehicles armed with Star Wars lasers so they can ride out to Afghanistan to kill goat-herders and blow shit up, there would be a lot more wealth available for charitable giving.

Also, our health insurance system is seriously dysfunctional so I expect that it is much more likely that people would be insured to begin with in a more healthy society. There will always be people who fall through the cracks and that seems to be what your concern is - perhaps your wife would have been one of those to fall through the cracks. My response to that is that given that with or without government, people will fall through the cracks, we should prefer the system in which fewer people fall through the cracks. With fully 1% of the US population in US prisons, ask yourself how many people do you think are falling through the cracks of our statist system? Reducing the accountability and liability of a massive sector of the population (public employees who almost all enjoy almost complete immunity for their actions within their assigned role) is hardly a recipe to reduce the number of people who fall through the cracks of society.

Don’t stop seeking.

Clayton -

*By “more healthy” I mean less immoral, less inclined to tolerate immoral behavior from the political class on the basis of its nonsensical arguments for moral/legal exceptionalism.

16

I make $34,700(pre tax) a year. I can not imagine someone actually needing more money - no shit. Sometimes I get 1-5k more. So, that puts me possibly a bit under average Joe.

90% of the country, last I checked, made <35k/yr. So you’re not just average, you’re actually significantly above average. We like to think rich/upper middle class starts at 100k… it’s really more like 60k.

EDIT: for incorrect term

And most people DO need more money than that, that is why the government has all these entitlement programs. The first thing to keep in mind is that, the second the government stops entitling everyone and propping up wages, this average, and probably your income is going to significantly drop.

Ron Paul purposed a 10% flat tax for everyone. He suggested it was not a proposal but more a rhetorical statement, I believe - you heard it right? If not i will track down the clip for you. However, he said for that 10% expect no help from the government. I am not crying WHAT DO I DO? I am asking in this scenario that Ron purposed… What would I do?

As it stands now, you do not pay personal income taxes. You get paid by them; you make 30k a year, are married, and you have a kid. You have 0 tax responsiblity, so you get all of your taxes paid back, plus EIC, plus child tax credit. You’re getting at least 1k each year FROM taxes, not to. (Note; this does not include SS, Medicare, Property, or sales taxes.)

Do you collect income from interest on your bank account? Take note of how this works. If you recieve 5% for your $1000, that comes up to $50 yearly. Say you had 10k, that comes out to $500 annualy. That’s a significant difference for the same percentage. A flat tax is actually a regressive tax on the poor. Not only because of this percentage discrepancy. But also because the wealthy get far more use out of the roads and other services (are trucks taking your goods back and forth across the country daily? Are people driving back and forth daily to work for you?)

So realize, this plan would actually have you paying more in taxes… tho the very wealthy would pay far less. On top of that, you will have no entitlements, so you will have more in your daily life to either pay for, or go without. On top of all this, your wages will almost certainly drop. Wages are held very artificially high in this country. You know what illegals accept for wages? That will be what supply and demand puts wages at for unskilled labor.

Food for thought.

17

Pushback, I would just like to say that I respect you a lot for supporting Ron Paul despite everything that you are receiving from the government, and to this reply

“I may be taking the bait here (so be it), but I’ll start with your implicit assumption - what do you think entitles you to other people’s wealth?”

Why in the world is this your first response? In context this is insulting, doesn’t actually answer what he asked, and serves to make someone who is mostly in agreement with you on political issues feel bad about wanting to help with his wife’s mental issues?? If I said “I’m dirt poor and I live on welfare because I’m physically incapacitated, I am a libertarian but I want to know what would happen to me in a libertarian society” would this be your first response to that?

Anyway, I would like to start off by saying that there are no guarantees about what would happen to you, in every societal transition there must be some losers, you might be one of them. With this being said, I have high hopes that if there were this big transition from a state subsidized and support healthcare to a free market one then the fact that there are people like you who would be harmed in this transition will make it more bearable, I hope that people would come together and form voluntary organizations which would help to provide welfare and healthcare to people who need it.

If one tenth of the population gave 100 dollars a year to a healthcare organization then six hundred thousand people could be given 5 thousand dollars for healthcare, I cannot see the movement having any less support then this, and I can easily see there being even more than 2.5 million people on this kind of coverage if the movement picked up, or less people with a higher amount of funds.

Also, in the long run healthcare costs would fall as market forces worked, the fact that the government doesn’t subsidize so much healthcare would cause the costs to go down, doctors would not have a monopoly service as they have currently, drugs could would be cheaper as the FDA would go bunk, and with competitive insurance and the end of emergency room compulsorily care healthcare costs would go down, and as taxes go down technology and the like for medical care will receive either monetarily more, or more useful funds to innovate with new technologies. The problem of course is that this is a long run process, it will not happen quickly

A similar process would happen with other industries, and your real income would probably go up significantly, giving you more to dedicate to your medical bills

Everyone would, in the short run have a hard time with a massive reduction in government action, because the economy is now built around it, in the long run however, practically everyone who isn’t a politician or a businessman kept in business by the government, would be better off.

Hope this helps! :slight_smile:

18

I assume Laotzu means “<” because he said $35k was significantly above average.

Both of these numbers are incorrect. I don’t know where they come from. In the U.S, only 12% of households make less than $15k/year. The median is over $44k. And both of these numbers are from 2005 so I don’t know what they are now. $34.7 is around the 40th percentile.

I intend to answer the OP but I just wanted to make these corrections.

19

Don’t flatter yourself. You’re just parroting orthodoxy.

Clayton -

20

I’m the person who wrote that reply. Why couldn’t you address me by name?

The reason I wrote it is because I felt like Pushback was implicitly arguing that, because he believes he’d be worse off under Ron Paul’s 10% flat-tax plan, that a libertarian society would necessarily be worse than the current statist society. Or, at the very least, he seemed to be arguing against the abolition of those government programs from which he and his family benefit. Such programs run completely counter to the idea of a libertarian society, of course. But maybe I read too much between the lines here - if so, I’ll gladly stand corrected.