I’m just wondering why very few people here are actually optimistic about the future? Do most of you really think that the situation will become unbearable here and we will abe mired in poverty for a long time to come? I’m very well read, although I still have a decades worth of further reading Austrian works, but I don’t understand why some of you guys are downright gloomy… I mean do we really have no hope at all in our lifetime? That’s the feeling I get from this forum on an almost daily basis.
As a rule, I try to be realistic. I think of this as a neutral place in between optimistic and pessimistic. In my view, the future is inherently uncertain, I can only know just so much and things don’t always work the way I want them to. I try to take an attitude of cautious optimism when things are going my way because I know that fate can quickly reverse itself.
I guess for me it depends on the day of the week. When I think about how the internet has contributed to the spread of libertarian ideas I feel optimistic, as I do when I begin to see and meet more people who are drifting our way. But, then again, I have a foreboding feeling that once libertarianism become any kind of threat to a status quo, that the state will quickly pounce on it - regulating the internet, attacking homeschoolers, even labeling libertarian groups as terrorists. We must consider the reality, taught to us by history, that the state will take whatever steps necessary to protect its power. Libertarianism is the only ideological movement that has any light on it which directly assaults political power. For now, it is dismissed with laughter and marginalized by statists. Expect this to morph into something more serious as more people are converted.
In one of Rothbard’s articles, he formulates history as a race between political enslavement of the masses at the hands of the elites on the one hand and freedom on the other hand. I’m pretty pessimistic overall and I’m starting to wonder if, perhaps, humans really are biologically disposed to an elite-enslaved dichotomy, similar to the alpha-male pattern in other species (including many of our close relatives among the primates). If that’s the case, it really sucks because I’m in the unfortunate position of having no realistic path for climbing out of the ranks of the enslaved into the club of elites while, unlike the rest of my fellow slaves, I have become acutely aware of my condition of slavery. Ignorance makes the slavery bearable for the masses. Losing that innocence makes the slavery unbearable but doesn’t provide any alleviation for it, either.
Clayton -
In my opinion, the reason many here are unhappy is because they have made their own personal happiness dependent on others changing into what they want them to be [i.e. others becoming more"libertarian" " anarcho-capitalist", etc. etc.] , and thereby improving the world.
For them, the more those “non-libertarians” [i.e everyone else] change and become “libertarian” etc. , the happier they [i.e. the presently unhappy “libertarian-minded”] will personally become- or so they believe.
In other words, psychologically, they have set themselves up for their own unhappiness, by making any such happiness dependent on others changing their own beliefs/behavior and becoming more “libertarian”, “more enlightened” etc etc.
This is a very common psychological process, not just confined to “libertarians” or “anarcho-capitalists” and similar , but common to many/most if not all “world changers”, of all political persuasions who are intent on trying to improve the condition of the world[ as they see it] .
The basic mistake is to make one’s happiness dependent on others changing. This, in my opinion, is futile- a waste of both time and mental energy.
It is worth bearing in mind that ultimately, even this “mistake” was the result of a freely made choice by each [now unhappy] “libertarian” individual, although few are prepared to admit this, and therefor remain locked in self-perpetuated unhappiness.
Regards, onebornfree.
Extreme left-wingers are negative too, but they have a distorted view of the world. I think the correct word for Austrians is realism.
One way to look at all this:
Having these depressive thoughts is entirely… NORMAL!
The reason for that is that if we didn’t feel depressed by what we view around us, then we wouldn’t feel spurred to action (spread ideas, find better refutations, find new ways to reach out, etc). The whole reason this movement exists in the first place is because every enlightened thinker feels the burden of pain in the world.
What onebornfree rightly points out is that we shouldn’t let it overwhelm us. At the end of the day we still want to live.
Exploitation is a virus on society. Exploitation that is not consciously felt will have devastating effects: like a frog slowly getting boiled. Society will only get rid of this pest when it’s boiling nature is widely felt.
Humans are biologically wired to never be content (the hedonistic treadmill), the world is generally boring, it’s filled with morons and there is no plausible solution on either large or individual scales to any of these problems.
I find a “solution” (one that is partially due to my biological disposition) in this: I don’t really care about people, I enjoy hating them, and I don’t bother myself with anything other than personal satisfaction and let the world go hang itself while I laugh at the bums.
I agree with you Liberte, I can’t help but feel indifferent to most people’s problems (as I’m sure most people feel about mine.) I know it’s probably their fault anyways and even if it isn’t, there’s not much I can really do about it.
I just don’t see economic freedom being something that will ever be popular. and the means to squeeze by a life free from the strangulation of the state seems more and more impossible.
so all I can do is wait for interventionist policies to collapse on themselves or for an opportunity to open up elsewhere (I’m looking at you, India).
I’m quite positive this is the case.
Civilizations have been rising and falling throughout history. Free people build them, then states destroy them. We’re on our way to the dustbin of history, and it’s not going to be pleasant for the victims. Down the road, the suffering will have produced a population of strong and realistic people, who will ultimately release their chains surprised to find them withered and the task easy, and something will rise out of the ashes. But it’s going to get rough soon and for a while, and there’s no saying for how long.
Which is true by definition.
You can go down fighting, what more could you ask for?
I used to be more concerned about the state of things as they are, with government and all, but have since begun to focus on other things. Afterall, there’s only so much time you can think and talk about libertarian philosophy; then you switch on the TV, or go out into the open and see that you’re perhaps an individual stranded in a sea of wilfully ignorant buffoons. Anarcho-capitalism is wonderful in theory but I’m more or less convinced, these days, that human society naturally organises into Hoppian/Kulhnelt-Leddihn conceptions of a natural elite and such forth.
Thanks to egalitarian democracy, it’s pretty clear to me now that the film Idiocracy has a firmer bead on the future, more than some imagined malevolent totalitarian regime. As such, I consider political action somewhat pointless, as so many are invested in the re-distrabutionist schemes and because the cheap emotionalism of leftist dogma has such a death-grip on the minds of the majority of people.
If you want to make a difference become like Henry Galt, I’d say. Make your own prosperity! Employ others! Establish a corporate empire! People still made money in the depression, Germany survived (as did Zimbabwe) hyperinflation and Argentina survived a strategic default relatively unscathed, as well, I believe. Life goes on, regardless.
It’s absolutely important to properly understand the effects of stupid policies, but the habit of endlessly engaging in ‘the sky is falling’ rhetoric eventually alienates people – something many libertarians can be guilty of. The trick might be to have a few other interests outside of classical liberal philosophy; Rothbard himself took this approach, I think.
I stay fairly upbeat; yet this involves taking medication to overcome my bouts with mania, so maybe I shouldn’t comment.
I do want to find more libertarian applications though, so I don’t feel like I’m stuck pontificating libertarian philosophy. I still don’t know what to do. I support mises.org with yearly fees and I support seastead.org with yearly fees. I want to further a personal project of providing Economics in one Lesson to every library in the nation. I think this would have, on net, a positive effect. I also enjoy math and science (neither of which is gloomy like political philosophy). Yet, in all, I don’t mind when posters are negative with each other or me, it helps clarify things.
I actually don’t think this trait of “negativity” is unique to libertarians. I think most people tend to be fairly negative in how they respond to most situations, and you’ll notice those who are upbeat and enjoy themselves, and be themselves in social sistuations tend to be more popular(not that “being popular” is something to aim at). I learned a lot of things about positivity from my door to door sales work, which still helps me today, so I guess it’s just stuck with me personally. There’s a saying from Henry Ford that we were told that stuck with me: “Whether you think you can or you can’t, you’re absolutely right.”
I think you’ll find the “enslaved masses” don’t worry less, they just worry about things we consider ridiculous, like machines taking all the jobs, or mass outsourcing. Indeed, I actually think a true understanding of reciprocity and mutual gain should make one more positive not less, but again, it depends on what you focus on.
I’m going to go with the opinion that it’s natural for people to worry. Even hardlined statists, and, progressives tend to worry a lot about problems. That’s why they want to use the state. They want the state to deal with these problems that they see. People just worry, and, I think Liberte is right, we won’t ever be completely happy. I also think that the internet lets us reveal all of our negative thoughts, and it’s good to know that perhaps things aren’t as bleak as we think they are.
I think that’s right. I suppose in a forum such as this, it’s only natural that it will have a concentration of people focusing on the same range of issues. My point is to be careful not to let the negative aspect poison one’s overall view of life, really.
The reality is that human beings are hierarchical, ie, some are smarter, faster, stronger, communicate more effectively than others, etc. Some are more ambitious, willing to take risk and make it pay. These people ought to be left alone to succeed as they deem it. What does not follow from the hierarchical pattern is that those who possess, for example, the ability make friends and influence people should use this strength to intervene in the economy. It is the intervention that is causing the source of economic problems, and this is the source of the pessimism I possess, because I understand what is happening to the economy and why. And I understand where all this is leading to.
Looking at the forum, yes, there are pessimistic attitudes among some, but not all members. Looking at the Mises Institute, I would have to say that every Austrian scholar that I have read and listened to is very upbeat and optimistic. They have stable lives, with families and children to take care of. Forum members are a select subset of people, and tend to be “unique” to say the least.
So, I don’t think it is the economics or political theory being studied here that creates pessimism (Mises and Hayek certainly were not pessimistic, and Rothbard was downright jovial). Rather, it is simply the personalities of internet forum members.