You guys are right

[Spideynw]

Jacob,

I find it interesting that you can understand why rape should be illegal, but not taxation. You say that I get “services” for my tax dollars, but that is untrue. My tax dollars go to paying people to push paper, kill people, and in general impede freedom and prosperity. In other words, it is just like someone stealing from me to sustain his or her self so he or she can go kill someone. No “service” to me was given.

[JB31]

@Anarchist Cain

@Jacob Bloom

The Constitution, which you guys don’t care about. But I understand that the Constitution is a piece of paper, it requires people to uphold it, if necessary, by force. I can see you’re not the guys who intend to do that.

Actually the first amendment is protection only from government. So again I say to you freedom of speech doesn’t exist on private property.

@Jacob Bloom

The government ONLY has the power to grow if people don’t stick by the principles of limited government. Luckily for you, there are people like me who absolutely believe in and will fight for limited government. But you don’t want that, you want no government. You should fight for it.

Clearly you are doomed to fail for under your logic you are still powerless [ and consequently without rights ].

1. So basically, in your world of private property I won’t even have the protection by law to say what I want to say? Do you see how bad of a sales job you guys do??

2. I don’t think I’m doomed to fail. I might be. As of now, I’m relatively powerless. And in a way, I am without rights, you’re correct.

[whipitgood]

@Jacob Bloom

3. If you really believe me to be your enemy, you’re more…fanatical than I thought. You sound like Islamic Extremists.

Islamic extremists want to force their beliefs on others, much like statists. We’re just fighting for the freedom to be left alone. You are our enemy insofar as you, like those religious extremists, want to use violence against us for your own ends.

[JB31]

@Spideynw

Jacob,

I find it interesting that you can understand why rape should be illegal, but not taxation. You say that I get “services” for my tax dollars, but that is untrue. My tax dollars go to paying people to push paper, kill people, and in general impede freedom and prosperity. In other words, it is just like someone stealing from me to sustain his or her self so he or she can go kill someone. No “service” to me was given.

Insert taxation into our little diagram we had before and let’s see if it fits.

[JB31]

@whipitgood

@Jacob Bloom

3. If you really believe me to be your enemy, you’re more…fanatical than I thought. You sound like Islamic Extremists.

Islamic extremists want to force their beliefs on others, much like statists. We’re just fighting for the freedom to be left alone. You are our enemy insofar as you, like those religious extremists, want to use violence against us for your own ends.

1. Freedom without power is irrelevant. If you don’t have the power to be left alone, you won’t be. What gives you the power to be left alone?

[nirgrahamUK]

1. you forgot the part where cancer is a disease. moron. and uneccessary. double moron.

*2)

@Jacob Bloom

Anyways, I claim a system works acceptably well.

yes, the second time you have favoured the status quo. thank you obama-bush.*

3) you are hardly my ally if you want to enslave me to your government. are we allies or am i your slave to be?

4) I dont know why I’m wasting this on a functional illiterate that is full of uninformed opinions on economics politics and philosophy that won’t take the tiem to read anything . but it was Ludwig.http://mises.org/midroad.asp

5) you know what it is to be a human like you. black of soul. my friends and I here know what humanity is like. thats why we don’t wish to enslave each other. what say you, slaver?

[whipitgood]

@Jacob Bloom

@whipitgood

@Jacob Bloom

Then what good is the freedom?? Freedom without power is…pointless.

Right, and if music is playing but no one is around to hear it, then the music is pointless. That does not change the fact that it’s playing.

Yes. But I’m not playing music right now, I’m talking to you guys on a forum. Jesus, does it hurt to talk in literal terms for a second? What good does my freedom to post here do me if I don’t have the power to?

I was afraid that that might be over your head. I’ll speak as plainly as is possible.

Even if you cannot use it, and you feel that it is useless, you still have the freedom to post on this forum. It might not be ‘useful,’ but it does not follow from being useless that it does not exist.

[JB31]

@JAlanKatz

@Jacob Bloom

All laws require an enforcer. No one enforces morals. However, if I kill someone, another person will say “I don’t want him killing me or anyone else, we need to lock him up!” So they do. Morality isn’t enforced, logic is. Before you can murder twice you have to murder once.

All laws? Who enforces the law of conservation of matter and energy? For that matter, who enforces logic?

Reality. The greatest enforcer of them all. Philosophy tries to transcend reality. But it can’t.

[JB31]

@whipitgood

@Jacob Bloom

@whipitgood

@Jacob Bloom

Then what good is the freedom?? Freedom without power is…pointless.

Right, and if music is playing but no one is around to hear it, then the music is pointless. That does not change the fact that it’s playing.

Yes. But I’m not playing music right now, I’m talking to you guys on a forum. Jesus, does it hurt to talk in literal terms for a second? What good does my freedom to post here do me if I don’t have the power to?

I was afraid that that might be over your head. I’ll speak as plainly as is possible.

Even if you cannot use it, and you feel that it is useless, you still have the freedom to post on this forum. It might not be ‘useful,’ but it does not follow from being useless that it does not exist.

So what good is freedom to me if I can’t use it? I’d rather have power. You’re making a terrific argument for power by the way, I like it.

[nirgrahamUK]

@Jacob Bloom

1. Freedom without power is irrelevant. If you don’t have the power to be left alone, you won’t be. What gives you the power to be left alone?

providers of law services, and morally decent neighbours.

[Spideynw]

@Jacob Bloom

Insert taxation into our little diagram we had before and let’s see if it fits.

What diagram?

[Laughing_Man]

@Jacob Bloom

So basically, in your world of private property I won’t even have the protection by law to say what I want to say? Do you see how bad of a sales job you guys do??

It is not your property. I cannot come to your house and just start quoting Hamlet and make you sit there claiming I have the freedom of speech.

@Jacob Bloom

I don’t think I’m doomed to fail. I might be. As of now, I’m relatively powerless. And in a way, I am without rights, you’re correct.

Well even though you don’t think you have rights. We think you at least have natural rights.

[Spideynw]

@Jacob Bloom

1. Freedom without power is irrelevant. If you don’t have the power to be left alone, you won’t be. What gives you the power to be left alone?

This statement is confusing. I do not need power to be free, I just need others to stop impeding my freedom.

[whipitgood]

@Jacob Bloom

If you don’t have the power to be left alone, you won’t be.

That’s not true. Not everyone is as amoral as you, thankfully. Most people would not harm a child or an elderly person just because they cannot defend themselves.

@Jacob Bloom

What gives you the power to be left alone?

My right to be left alone is rarely challenged. The state is a deviation from the norm in that respect.

To awnser your question though, any means with which to defend myself.

[Harry_Felker]

@Jacob Bloom

You’re a very black and white kinda guy, Felker. I find that scary. Because you can’t see degrees in things or shades of gray.

Be very afraid, I do not compromise, I know what freedom is, and I know you do not advocate it, you cannot, you wish to have fear placed on your head to keep you from breaking the laws, remember you can only speak for yourself Jakob, there is no collective for you to hide behind…

A shade of grey is a rationalization for a loss of liberty, I need no shades, I need only liberty…

@Jacob Bloom

Law does predate government but it does not predate enforcement,

Law and enforcement of said law predate government, or there would be no law before government, as you postulate, there is no law if it cannot be enforced…

@Jacob Bloom

government could be argued to be as old as sedentary human civilization though (think tribal chiefdoms). And probably even with nomads. They had leaders who made the rules and enforced them.

These rules you speak of were not made by nomads and primary sedentary humans, these were rules passed down in order to conduct effort in conjunction with other individuals, for the profit of both parties, or we would not be here today…

@Jacob Bloom

I don’t have to prove that government is necessary. It exists, that’s proof enough to me.

Vibrators exist, is that proof that you are sexually inadequate? Just because something it here does not relate necessity…

@Jacob Bloom

You have to prove to me that government isn’t necessary.

Proving a negative is an impossibility, prove your positive please…

@Jacob Bloom

Also, I’m not trying to steal anything from you, there’s no need for violence. Unless you want violence, in which case I’ll defend myself.

You are the one who wants me fearing for my freedom every second of the day in order to control me, I am not offering you aggression I am warning you of retaliation…

Consider it me being nice, as I am not sure you will hear stop or I will shoot from 800yds…

@Jacob Bloom

Totalitarianism and limited government are two very different things. The fact that you can’t see that is disturbing because it means that you literally see everything as black and white. Government or no. And that’s…not practical.

Practicality is the swan song of the socialist…

Yes they are, the first you list is the effect of the second…

I see levels of tyranny just fine, but I note that regardless of the lightness of chains, the chains are still present, so it is freedom or it is not…

@Jacob Bloom

Again, fear is a means of control. If you can’t instill fear in your anarchist region somehow, it will fail because men will become uncontrollable.

And again Jakob, you are agreeing with the likes of Pinochet, Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Hitler… The list goes on and on…

Control or freedom, you have only these two choices, if you choose control you open the door to lose all freedom, if you choose freedom you have no logical course to control others…

Again, be afraid, be disturbed, because I want freedom, because I have the self-respect to have that freedom, I have the confidence to live by it, I have the responsibility to do so…

I am obviouosly as much the antithesis of your standpoint as I am of Leftists, it is not because I want the world shaped to be controlled by what I choose to advocate, it is because I want freedom to live my life without a badged robber claiming rights over me because he belongs to the government cult…

[JB31]

@nirgrahamUK

1. you forgot the part where cancer is a disease. moron. and uneccessary. double moron.

*2)

@Jacob Bloom

Anyways, I claim a system works acceptably well.

yes, the second time you have favoured the status quo. thank you obama-bush.*

3) you are hardly my ally if you want to enslave me to your government. are we allies or am i your slave to be?

4) I dont know why I’m wasting this on a functional illiterate that is full of uninformed opinions on economics politics and philosophy that won’t take the tiem to read anything . but it was Ludwig.http://mises.org/midroad.asp

5) you know what it is to be a human like you. black of soul. my friends and I here know what humanity is like. thats why we don’t wish to enslave each other. what say you, slaver?

1. Why do diseases exist? What are they? They’re little organic matter trying to fight for their own life. They’re as much a part of nature as everything else is.

2. The funny thing about status quo arguments is that they are entirely dependent on what point in time we pick as the status quo.

3. I don’t want to enslave you. I want you to understand that…you will never be entirely and totally free. It’s not possible. Neither will I.

4. I’ve read more than you think I have. I just haven’t read the same stuff you have. You haven’t read what I have either. I suggest starting with…The Prince by Machiavelli.

5. I say you’re living in a dream. I’m as much human as you are. Which means you and I are the same. I’m just more in touch with what it means to be human. It took me a lot of time to get here though, I don’t expect everyone to get it at first. I don’t mean to sound condescending, I’m not. You and I are the same thing just with different understandings guiding us.

[whipitgood]

@nirgrahamUK

@Jacob Bloom

1. Freedom without power is irrelevant. If you don’t have the power to be left alone, you won’t be. What gives you the power to be left alone?

providers of law services, and morally decent neighbours.

Thank god Mr. Bloom is not one of those neighbors, eh?

[JAlanKatz]

@Jacob Bloom

I’ve said this before, I want limited government. I think it’s possible. I don’t think you have to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Ok. What should it be limited to, and how will it be limited?

[Harry_Felker]

@Jacob Bloom

1. So basically, in your world of private property I won’t even have the protection by law to say what I want to say? Do you see how bad of a sales job you guys do??

You do realize that if I choose to, while you are on my property, I can eject you if you say things I do not like, effectively cutting off your speech to those present, and the constitution does nothing about this, because it is MY PROPERTY…

[Spideynw]

@whipitgood

@Jacob Bloom

If you don’t have the power to be left alone, you won’t be.

That’s not true. Not everyone is as amoral as you, thankfully. Most people would not harm a child or an elderly person just because they cannot defend themselves.

That is not what he is saying. He is saying that most people do not harm a child or an elderly person because society would punish them for it. He would not harm a child or elderly person because he does not want to get punished for it.